Comparison with The Operational Art of War III

[DeadInThrench]

bennyb....

Hmmm.... I dunno. I DLed this corps level Russian front scenario from Rugged Defense... by Col Wayne Close.... and it looks really well done (and I prefer scenarios with less counters not more) and.... he has these partisian units and as the German player..... the first thing you are gonna do is break down those units and use them to block the retreats of the Russian units on the front and.... I am sure the partisian units played a roll but.... using them to that extent.... just seems SOOOO unrealistic (maybe not, I am not an expert on the roll of the partisans in the opening phases of that campaign).

But.... what are ya gonna do? The problem starts with units being able to retreat into enemy controlled hexes in the first place... and with that you gotta have every adjacent hex occupied... and you end you putting recon, artillery, HQ units, you name it, in those hexes just to block retreats and.... this is where things get silly.

As far as the Africa Corps scenarios.... WHICH scenario did you try?? There are so many of them. I tried the one with the Italians vs the British at the start of the war... and with the Italians was able to get the Brits over extended and then wipe them out. Posted this in TOAW forums and another poster posted that he had had the same experience. This one, blamed on Elmer being 'not that bright'.

Oh.... and sheesh..... those Africa Corps scenarios are way old for the most part... and thus I would not hold my breath on getting enhancements in either the scenario or the game systems. The only thing I might suggest, try another of the Africa Corps scenarios and see if things are more realistic with that one. The other possibly, go through what else there might be on Rugged Defense and see if there is something better there.

DiT

[Widell]

ORIGINAL: bennyb
Yikes! Since when did forums become so heavily policed? You must be a riot at parties Widell. [;)]

I don't police any forums, just reacted to your comment which I found was, somewhat off the topic of a several weeks old thread. And, if you judge people's party abilities by their posts in this and other forums, you may be in for some surprises in your life......

[bennyb]

As far as the Africa Corps scenarios.... WHICH scenario did you try?? There are so many of them.

I was actually referring to the Africa scenario from Advanced Tactics DiT. Have you given that one a try?

And, if you judge people's party abilities by their posts in this and other forums, you may be in for some surprises in your life......

It was supposed to be a joke Widell! Remember laughter? [:D]

[Widell]

And, if you judge people's party abilities by their posts in this and other forums, you may be in for some surprises in your life......

ORIGINAL: bennyb It was supposed to be a joke Widell! Remember laughter? [:D]

I understand your attempt to make jokes here. Did you get my attempt at the same thing? On the other hand, English is not my native language, and jokes can be hard, specially when they involve personal traits of the one you are joking at the expense of. That being said, and this is not policing or being boring, or not remembering how to laugh (all potentially pretty judgemental comments, even if you obviously made them in an attempt to make some fun [;)]), it may be worth holding off on the more personal jokes until you know the person just a little bit better, OK? That being said, I will consider my point made, and let you make fun of any potential personal traits I may, or may not have [;)]. And finally, to make sure my comments are not taken too bloody seriously: [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] (After all, it is (at least somewhere in this thread) a couple of games we are talking about, not my social skills, or lack thereof depending on who gets to judge).

[DeadInThrench]

ORIGINAL: bennyb

As far as the Africa Corps scenarios.... WHICH scenario did you try?? There are so many of them.

I was actually referring to the Africa scenario from Advanced Tactics DiT. Have you given that one a try?

Hmmm..... I guess I see TOAW as a more historical game just that I have problems with some (many?) of the game systems once you get into it a bit.

I believe I brought up AT Africa Corps (or was that in PT... can't remember) and they had a German panzer division and..... had it divided in half and each half had 1 medium tank and 2 light tanks (or something like that) as their armored contingent.

Hehehe.... I know I can bring up any TOAW Africa Corps scenario... and there is gonna be a HUGE difference in historicity.

So, with AT..... I think you gotta approach it as an ahistorical War/Strategy GAME, with some historical flavor in those scenarios that have it.... and if you approach it that way, then those scenarios can be fun (albeit I would like some more visibility <g>).

Whatever, just my opinion of course.

DiT

[Widell]

ORIGINAL: DeadInThrench
So, with AT..... I think you gotta approach it as an ahistorical War/Strategy GAME, with some historical flavor in those scenarios that have it.... and if you approach it that way, then those scenarios can be fun (albeit I would like some more visibility <g>).

Whatever, just my opinion of course.

I guess that TOAW is designed to be able to create very accurate historical OOB's and TOE's, with some, more or less historical, events. The difference is that any game that has the element of production and research built in, will by default leave much more of the decision making to the player = Less historical outcome since the player has more choices and options. Both are still games by the way, and not simulators.

I suggest you have a look at the scenarios in AT that does not make use of research & production (Crete for example) which in my opinion is painfully historic for the Allied player that really only have one option once the Germans land = Stay and defend the harbours or evacuate as many men as possible (Which the Allied player gets to decided through an event/action card).

Then, the "engine" in AT is different compared to TOAW, so the historical flavour of how the units are represented is not as "good" as TOAW where you think in squads and number of planes, tanks, trucks etc. That part is more abstracted in AT which I don't feel make it less historic in any sense.

That is my opinion, and as I have said before, I play both games and enjoy them both immensely.

[bennyb]

I suggest you have a look at the scenarios in AT that does not make use of research & production (Crete for example)

I don't think the North Africa scenario has any research and production, only timed reinforcements.

I guess it's all a matter of personal preference. For me personally AT probably isn't my kind of game. From my perspective the Africa scenario may as well be called "Rommel in Middle Earth" for all the good it is. I mean there's a-historical and there's f*kn-a-historical!

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: bennyb

I suggest you have a look at the scenarios in AT that does not make use of research & production (Crete for example)

I don't think the North Africa scenario has any research and production, only timed reinforcements.

I guess it's all a matter of personal preference. For me personally AT probably isn't my kind of game. From my perspective the Africa scenario may as well be called "Rommel in Middle Earth" for all the good it is. I mean there's a-historical and there's f*kn-a-historical!

Have you looked at the Crete scenario, or the Salerno scenario - both are historical, another is the Ardennes battle

Probably the one thing I would have liked to see in this game is the ability to set max unit composition or something along those lines to better model historical OOB's, but some scenarios can come pretty close by limiting reinforcements and not allowing production, etc.

But I've thought that enve when the battles deviate from the historical OOB - the "flavor" of the battles is still there.

Rick

[Widell]

ORIGINAL: bennyb
For me personally AT probably isn't my kind of game.

Sounds as if you are right.

[Daniel_machinegun]

I played every hex based game since Perfect General 1 and PanzerGeneral 1.

TOAW is a great game in terms of reality, but it has not much "replay/ability". At least not with Solo-Player

TOAW is like fighting a Battle.
AT is like fighting a WAR

AT editor allow to buid almost any war. There was an old game I loved: Clash of Steel... and AT scenarios Europe1939 and WAW does improve the old Clash of Steel game.

AT is more about "gameplay" than reality accurancy. A lot of gamers seem to forget that "abstraction" does improve gameplay while realism kill gameplay.

Community
AT will outmatch TOAW because of three reasons.
1) Smaller scenarios allow a quick PBEM play
2) Simplicity
3) Vic game support is huge.