Orders to Sections

The highly anticipated second release in the Panzer Command series, featuring an updated engine and many major feature improvements. 3D Tactical turn-based WWII combat on the Eastern Front, with historical scenarios and campaigns as well as support for random generated battles and campaigns from 1941-1944.
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LuckyJim1006
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Orders to Sections

Post by LuckyJim1006 »

Hi all,

First off let me say I am enjoying the game a lot and am still finding my way round tactical combat.

Playing the first boot camp scenario I used the 81's to lay smoke and then rushed the platoon through it when it looked thick enough.

2 Sections made it, the 3rd got pinned down about 40 meters from the church. So I had 2 sections in the church and shooting and one section stuck out in the open, and that smoke was thinning like my hair.

I wanted the section that was out in the open to 'rush' but as I understand it I have to give this order to the HQ unit first. This means that the 2 sections in the church have to stop firing. This seems slightly wrong.

I know I could have used the 'Engage, Target, and Engage,Move command but the Enagage,Move command does not give the sort of speed that men under fire, in the open would want to move at to get to cover.

How hard would it be to recode 'Rush' so it is a subset of Engage ?

That would fix my little problem :-)

All you need to fix after that is my incredible lack of tactical skill.....
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by Erik Rutins »

Hi Jim,
ORIGINAL: LuckyJim1006
First off let me say I am enjoying the game a lot and am still finding my way round tactical combat.

I'm glad to hear you're having fun.
Playing the first boot camp scenario I used the 81's to lay smoke and then rushed the platoon through it when it looked thick enough.
2 Sections made it, the 3rd got pinned down about 40 meters from the church. So I had 2 sections in the church and shooting and one section stuck out in the open, and that smoke was thinning like my hair.

I wanted the section that was out in the open to 'rush' but as I understand it I have to give this order to the HQ unit first. This means that the 2 sections in the church have to stop firing. This seems slightly wrong.

Since the game goes from top down with platoon orders, if you want to use a specialized order like Rush, you do have to change the whole platoon order. Mounted platoon HQs are limited to static orders like Engage or Defend. However, there's a good solution here.

The Church will only fit two squads, so you really just want to get the third partly in the cover of the church so they're not taking fire from all angles. I'd suggest putting the platoon in the Church on Defend orders, then issuing a Defend -> Move order to the squad that's outside.

Defend -> Move has the following advantages over Rush in this instance:

1. Your squad is considered to be "sneaking" or "crawling" when using Defend -> Move so they are only a +5 to be spotted instead of a +15 when Rushing.
2. Your squad is still moving, so they are at a -1 to be hit, just like when Rushing.
3. Your squad is using what available cover there is, so firepower directed against them uses its straight value. Rushing across open ground gives those firing at you a +1 to their firepower.
I know I could have used the 'Engage, Target, and Engage,Move command but the Enagage,Move command does not give the sort of speed that men under fire, in the open would want to move at to get to cover.

That's another option. Though it doesn't give the speed of Rush, it's faster than Defend -> Move and a better choice if you want to personally choose targets for the rest of the platoon. It will get then into the shadow of the Church faster, but they'll still be more exposed while moving.
How hard would it be to recode 'Rush' so it is a subset of Engage ?
That would fix my little problem :-)

Unfortunately, it's not in the plans for this release to make major changes to the Orders. They are like this because you're assumed to be issuing brief (like a few seconds) orders to each platoon commander each phase (as the Company or Battalion commander). We tried to therefore keep them a bit more straightforward. Both Engage and Defend have options for getting the squad those last 40 meters to the church with a good chance of success, just not with the speed of the specialized Rush order.

Note that if you absolutely must Rush, you can unmount your HQ, set Rush as the platoon order and give the third squad a Rush destination while Rushing the HQ 1m and then re-mount the HQ.
All you need to fix after that is my incredible lack of tactical skill.....

Don't worry too much about that - you'll get the hang of it. Boot Camp is not actually very easy, unlike the tutorial, but it's meant to teach a certain set of skills and once you get through it the rest becomes a lot easier.

Regards,

- Erik
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PDiFolco
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by PDiFolco »

LuckyJim pointed an exact case where the order system don't do well: a squad CANNOT run alone to cover. It's not a game breaker, but clearly not logical. Why can't we have a "rush" or "run" option under Engage, as we have Move ? This won't be a major change - the Rush order can stay where it is, the new one could just be a new suboption for Engage.
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by Erik Rutins »

Let's just say we actually had the time to do that. If we did that, why would you ever again use the Rush order?

The situation described above is _exactly_ what Engage Move and Defend Move are meant for. Most of the platoon has reached cover, one squad still has 40 meters to go. Those orders are intended more for short movements and they work fine for that situation. If the third squad were somehow 250m away, I could understand the strong need to Rush it, but the next question would be how it got that far separated.

Regards,

- Erik
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RocketMan
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by RocketMan »

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

LuckyJim pointed an exact case where the order system don't do well: a squad CANNOT run alone to cover. It's not a game breaker, but clearly not logical. Why can't we have a "rush" or "run" option under Engage, as we have Move ? This won't be a major change - the Rush order can stay where it is, the new one could just be a new suboption for Engage.

I completely agree. While I realize that it can take a lot of work to change something like this, it really should have been caught pretty early in the design process or at least in playtesting, and should at least be put on the list for a future patch.
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by RocketMan »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Let's just say we actually had the time to do that. If we did that, why would you ever again use the Rush order?

The situation described above is _exactly_ what Engage Move and Defend Move are meant for. Most of the platoon has reached cover, one squad still has 40 meters to go. Those orders are intended more for short movements and they work fine for that situation. If the third squad were somehow 250m away, I could understand the strong need to Rush it, but the next question would be how it got that far separated.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik, who cares if anybody would use the rush order again? Make the interface more logical and allow players to do things that could reasonable be done in the real world and the game will be a lot more fun.
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: RocketMan
I completely agree. While I realize that it can take a lot of work to change something like this, it really should have been caught pretty early in the design process or at least in playtesting, and should at least be put on the list for a future patch.

Folks, there's a difference between a bug and a part of the design that you don't like. While we're listening, I'd rather get some constructive discussion on why the existing options are non-starters for you and what you would do with the other orders once everything gets added into "Engage". [;)]
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LuckyJim1006
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by LuckyJim1006 »

Thanks Eric I have a saved game at the point where the 3rd squad went to ground, will try the various commands and see what happens.

Personally I like the idea that you cannot micromanage to much - and thinking about it would an expierenced unit actually Rush or would they try and crawl to cover. Which the Defend Move command would cover.

In my scenario I did set the Platoon to Rush and sure enough the 3rd squad got spotted and cut to pieces.
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RocketMan
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by RocketMan »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: RocketMan
I completely agree. While I realize that it can take a lot of work to change something like this, it really should have been caught pretty early in the design process or at least in playtesting, and should at least be put on the list for a future patch.

Folks, there's a difference between a bug and a part of the design that you don't like. While we're listening, I'd rather get some constructive discussion on why the existing options are non-starters for you and what you would do with the other orders once everything gets added into "Engage". [;)]

I didn't say it was a bug. It just seems like a much more logical way to lay out the orders.

Seriously, the way the current orders are laid out essentially says "nobody can run unless everybody runs." That is just not logical to me. However, like PDiFolco said it is not a game breaker.
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Mobius
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by Mobius »

ORIGINAL: RocketMan
Erik, who cares if anybody would use the rush order again? Make the interface more logical and allow players to do things that could reasonable be done in the real world and the game will be a lot more fun.
To make it so everybody who wants to rush any which way regardless of the orders it would be necessary to "lock" the Rush order on each squad until they reach their intended destination. Thus when the suppressed squad got back on its feet it could do no other order than Rush to the intended destination before it was suppressed. That would seem a good solution but then the situation might change and Rushing would be unwise.

Now, people were talking about stacking orders. They probably mean stacking for future use. What if they were to stack in the past? You order a platoon to do something. One or two subunts can't reach their destination. But the HQ changes orders to fire. The units must complete their move before they can fire. That would make one think ahead wouldn't it?
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thewood1
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by thewood1 »

As long as the subunits are out of command.  Another thing that would limit gamey rushing is the units exhausting themselves after more than 50m.
 
In CMBB, I use rush/fast/run only only in abolutely dire emergencies because of fatigue.  I also have to plan on not using them for a few turns so they can recover.
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by Mobius »

ORIGINAL: thewood1
As long as the subunits are out of command.  Another thing that would limit gamey rushing is the units exhausting themselves after more than 50m.
In CMBB, I use rush/fast/run only only in abolutely dire emergencies because of fatigue.  I also have to plan on not using them for a few turns so they can recover.
In the miniature rules rushes are limited to two turns in a row. But there is no fatigue. Just a limit on Rushes.
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by Erik Rutins »

Ok, design-wise, Rush was meant for use out of combat and in special situations near combat where limited exposure time was more important than cover. When you're already close to the enemy, the idea was that an individual squad is not going to be likely to move in a way that totally exposes it to enemy fire, so the "combat" orders of Engage and Defend were given different move orders.

Engage's movement order can be used to cross the entire map, but it's at normal speed meaning the soldiers within the squad are trying to make some use of cover. Defend's movement order was meant for minor adjustments in an established defensive line, so it's intended to be a sneak/crawl maneuver that takes maximum advantage of cover and keeps enemy spotting minimized so as to hopefully not give away the defensive position. Defend's move is also limited to 50m and only moves in one phase of the two, since it emphasizes keeping to cover and using caution.

That's the logic behid it in any case.

It's not that I can't understand why you might want to Rush that third squad as a player - it's that I don't understand why the other existing options are not acceptable. They make some sense to me as well when looked at from the top down and imagining that the platoon commander and his squad are already in cover and in combat.

Now given all that. I'd like to make the orders more intuitive and easier to manage for everyone, but I'd like to also feel that everyone really understands all the existing options and the reasoning behind them before we go much further in that conversation. I'll post a more detailed order summary later this week, perhaps we should pick up the discussion again then.
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rickier65
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by rickier65 »

ORIGINAL: LuckyJim1006

Thanks Eric I have a saved game at the point where the 3rd squad went to ground, will try the various commands and see what happens.

Personally I like the idea that you cannot micromanage to much - and thinking about it would an expierenced unit actually Rush or would they try and crawl to cover. Which the Defend Move command would cover.

In my scenario I did set the Platoon to Rush and sure enough the 3rd squad got spotted and cut to pieces.


Lucky - I'd be interested in how well they did when you retried using the Defend move. I've "adjusted my tactic to this as well. I find a rarely use rush now, and when I do, it's to Rush the whole platoon - Perhaps the Rush order is best used in a "move to combat" situation where you're not subject to fire. while the defend-->move, or advance is better suited to moving under fire.


I don't know - I'm still learning.

Rick

LuckyJim1006
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by LuckyJim1006 »

Okay chaps - I retried the Defend-Move option a couple of times and got very good results, that squad stuck out just beyond the graveyard moved slowly (God it looked slow, I was urging them to hurry up - time to get a glass of wine to chill out I think) but they fired back and did not seem to come under so  much fire.

I managed to tuck them into the corner of the tower and they even took out those pesky snipers. So no more rush for me unless everyone is doing it.

I agree Rick that Rush is best left for hurrying around behind cover when you know no enemy are near.

On to the second scenario and now I have had some real fun. The squad miles from the bridge rushed for 4 turns as I watched the trucks and troops coming towards me. I guess that this is bootcamp so the deployments are meant to be akward to get us used to the game but IRL as a commander I would have arty all over Ivan and sod where my other squads are or what they were doing. But because I wanted to see how far that squad would run I used Rush for the first 4 turns. Then switched to Engage after I unleashed the arty.

Some observations.

I had to dismount the HQ before I could call the arty (they were in Rush mode inside a church).
Arty arrived and bracketed the trucks, quick tip get the grass square mod, you can count the squares they move in a turn and plan accordingly. Bit Gamey, maybe but I prefer to think of it as an intelligent FSO :-)
But for some reason Arty is greyed out now with no tooltip telling me why. Maybe CB fire took them out. - Edit for stupidity, I was out of Radio Contact. Doh

Onwards and upwards.



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Erik Rutins
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by Erik Rutins »

Jim,
ORIGINAL: LuckyJim1006
Okay chaps - I retried the Defend-Move option a couple of times and got very good results, that squad stuck out just beyond the graveyard moved slowly (God it looked slow, I was urging them to hurry up - time to get a glass of wine to chill out I think) but they fired back and did not seem to come under so  much fire.
I managed to tuck them into the corner of the tower and they even took out those pesky snipers. So no more rush for me unless everyone is doing it.
I agree Rick that Rush is best left for hurrying around behind cover when you know no enemy are near.

Glad to hear it worked well.
On to the second scenario and now I have had some real fun. The squad miles from the bridge rushed for 4 turns as I watched the trucks and troops coming towards me. I guess that this is bootcamp so the deployments are meant to be akward to get us used to the game but IRL as a commander I would have arty all over Ivan and sod where my other squads are or what they were doing. But because I wanted to see how far that squad would run I used Rush for the first 4 turns. Then switched to Engage after I unleashed the arty.

Yes, that scenario deliberately spreads your squads out. What I generally do is use the Setup phase to get them a lot closer together. I can generally get the one squad in the Church and the other in one of the foxholes near the bridge objective. The third one I keep on Engage -> Move and head him to the bridge.

I use Spot Indirect Fire to keep dropping artillery on the Soviet advance and this generally breaks it up enough combined with targeted small arms fire from my squads (each in good cover) to get things over with pretty quickly.
I had to dismount the HQ before I could call the arty (they were in Rush mode inside a church).

Hm, that sounds like a bug - Spot Indirect Fire is a static order so it should have been available even while mounted.
Arty arrived and bracketed the trucks, quick tip get the grass square mod, you can count the squares they move in a turn and plan accordingly. Bit Gamey, maybe but I prefer to think of it as an intelligent FSO :-)

Indeed, the abstracted FO will automaticaly adjust the artillery to some degree each phase. It should get more accurate as the barrage continues.
But for some reason Arty is greyed out now with no tooltip telling me why. Maybe CB fire took them out. - Edit for stupidity, I was out of Radio Contact. Doh

No problem - note that they also have a "cooldown" period between barrages when they'll be unavailabe even with FO contact.

If you haven't updated to v1.01d already you should try that as well as it addressed a few minor typos and issues in Boot Camp.

Regards,

- Erik
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LuckyJim1006
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RE: Orders to Sections

Post by LuckyJim1006 »

My arty slaughtered them but the HQ gave thier lives under withering return fire at the church.

Niggles aside I am loving this game. :-)
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