WiF Annual 2008

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here is the rest of the area that might be considered as part of the ceded lands. Though this is not what I am proposing, I include it here so you can see what isn't being given to Japan.

[lomyrin]

In the CWiF games I have played we have used  a line due north from Harbin as the dividing line for territory gained by Japan, very similar to what Steve suggests above.
 
We had to observe this manually since the Russo/Jap peace was not implemented in CWiF.
 
Lars

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

One of the changes from the 2008 WIF Annual is to the USSR-Japan Peace. It says that the USSR can cede all the hexes on the Pacific Map to Japan.

I propose that for MWIF we designate the hex I have the cursor on as the upper left corner (inclusive) of the area given to Japan. That is a forest hex 5 hexes north of Blagovyeshchensk [an excellent name for a child born out of wedlock]. this would give Japan the three ports Nikolayevsk, Alexandrovsk, and Sovietskaya Gavan, as well as Komsomolsk. The only thing north/east of this of any value are three more ports that go nowhere, so I'll include them too as part of the ceded lands: Okhotsk, Magadan, and Petropavlovsk.

The full errata is :
******************************************
USSR-Japan peace (WiF 13.7.3), add to WiF option 50
The USSR may surrender at any time during its first war with Japan. In addition to hexes given up per the existing surrender rule, all hexes on the Pacific Map are surrendered to Japan. Japan may surrender at any time to the USSR during their first war. In addition to hexes given up per the existing surrender rule, Japan also cedes Manchuria to the USSR.
******************************************

In games terms, I don't think that Kamtchatka is part of what is given to Japan as part of this errata, as Kamtchatka is not USSR in WiF FE. It is a Territory controlled by the USSR.
So I think that the three more ports that go nowhere except maybe Okhotsk (see below why) should stay Russian. Anyway, they go nowhere.

The area that now Russia can cede to Japan if Russia want's to surrender before Vlad is conquered corresponds to about 4 Russian administrative divisions : The Amurskaya Oblast (whose upper left hex would be the hex with "Trans" written on the piture of your second post, or a couple hexes north of that -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amurskaya_oblast), the south part of the Khabarovskiy Kray (that would extend north along the coast to about halfway between Okhotsk and Magadan, including about 4-6 hexes inland -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khabarovsk_Krai), the Primorsky Krai (Where Vlad is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primorsky_Krai) and the Sakhalinskaya Oblast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakhalin_Oblast).

The others administrative divisions of Russian Far East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_far_east) should stay Russian IMO. The Yakut ASSR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakha_Republic), Chukotskiy Autonomous Okrug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chukotskiy ... %2C_Russia), Kamchatka Krai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamchatka_Krai) and Magadan Oblast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadan_Oblast). I think that those parts should not be given to Japan. In 1926-1938 they were not considered part of Russian Far East, and in game terms they are way beyond what the errata gives to Japan.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Patrice,

What is your proposed alternative? Just to leave the 3 extra ports Russian? I have no vested interest in this - I haven't written any code to support it. What I proposed was just to get the discussion started.

EDIT: What I am looking for is something that is easy to define. That will make it easy to code, and equally important, make it easy for players to understand what is being given up. If we go with the irregularly shaped administrative districts, it will be difficult to implement. My logic here is that from a game play point of view, there are hundreds of alternatives that are roughly equal, so lets choose one that is easy to comprehend & code.

[marcuswatney]

Please remind me of the "existing surrender rule" and put up a copy of the northern half of the WiF FE Pacific map, so we can all sense how the new errata expands the existing situation in the paper game.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Please remind me of the "existing surrender rule" and put up a copy of the northern half of the WiF FE Pacific map, so we can all sense how the new errata expands the existing situation in the paper game.

Original Option 50 from RAW7 aug 04
***************************
Option 50: (USSR-Japan compulsory peace) If Japan controls Vladivostok during the first war between Japan and the USSR, the Japanese player must agree to a peace if the Soviet player wants one. Similarly, if the USSR controls 3 or more resources that were Japanese controlled at the start of Sep/Oct 1939, the Soviet player must agree to a peace if the Japanese player wants one.
In either case, the new Russo-Japanese border is established by the hexes each controls. Any pocket of non-coastal hexes wholly surrounded by hexes controlled by the other major power becomes controlled by the major power whose hexes surround them.
(Example snipped)
Japan and the USSR cannot compel a peace in their second or any subsequent war.
***************************

[npilgaard]

In addition to hexes given up per the existing surrender rule, all hexes on the Pacific Map are surrendered to Japan.
(...)
In games terms, I don't think that Kamtchatka is part of what is given to Japan as part of this errata, as Kamtchatka is not USSR in WiF FE. It is a Territory controlled by the USSR.

As I read it, all hexes controlled (not merely being part of USSR) are given up, thus Kamchatka is given up as well.
The hexes lost 'per the existing surrender rule' are defined by control, not home country etc., and thus it is also control, as opposed to being a part of USSR itself, that defines what is given up - as I read it, at least.

Also, it somehow makes more sense - again imho - that the 'entire east' is given up, not just some area between western Siberia and Kamchatka.

[sajbalk]

For purposes of implementing this rule, the designer's dividing line in the West is fine. In the East, I would include the Kamchatka Peninsula (ah, memories of good time in Risk). It is a collection of Svoiet hexes that corresponds to hexes on the WiFFE Pacific map. In the paper game, the Japanese would only need to make a divisional invasion of an out of supply minor port to take the territory of the peninsula. In MWiF, the Japanese would need to make more strenuous efforts.

To get the same effect, I would second the designer's proposal.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: npilgaard
As I read it, all hexes controlled (not merely being part of USSR) are given up, thus Kamchatka is given up as well.
The hexes lost 'per the existing surrender rule' are defined by control, not home country etc., and thus it is also control, as opposed to being a part of USSR itself, that defines what is given up - as I read it, at least.

Also, it somehow makes more sense - again imho - that the 'entire east' is given up, not just some area between western Siberia and Kamchatka.

Maybe we should ask Harry if Kamtchatka should be given up by this errata. I'll ask.
My opinion is that it should not, because of the rule rationale that I gave (it is not USSR) and because it is hundred miles away from Vlad & the Japanese armies. Same for Yakutskaya for instance, it is so far away, why give it to the Japs ?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: npilgaard
As I read it, all hexes controlled (not merely being part of USSR) are given up, thus Kamchatka is given up as well.
The hexes lost 'per the existing surrender rule' are defined by control, not home country etc., and thus it is also control, as opposed to being a part of USSR itself, that defines what is given up - as I read it, at least.

Also, it somehow makes more sense - again imho - that the 'entire east' is given up, not just some area between western Siberia and Kamchatka.

Maybe we should ask Harry if Kamtchatka should be given up by this errata. I'll ask.
My opinion is that it should not, because of the rule rationale that I gave (it is not USSR) and because it is hundred miles away from Vlad & the Japanese armies. Same for Yakutskaya for instance, it is so far away, why give it to the Japs ?

I have no real preference, other than simplicity. I'll post a screen shot of the 'missing' portions of the map later today.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Patrice,

What is your proposed alternative? Just to leave the 3 extra ports Russian? I have no vested interest in this - I haven't written any code to support it. What I proposed was just to get the discussion started.

I would give the Japanese this, based on the WiF FE map.
This includes the southern part of Kamchatka, the whole Sakhalin.
On the other hand I would not give any of the northern Ports.

This is fairly simple. All Russian hexes that are :
- Between row 44 (included) and row 64 (included) and between column 152 / 153 (included) and column 172 (included).
- Plus hex 43,170 (northern tip of Sakhalin)
- Between row 40 (included) and row 49 (included) and between columns 185 (included) and column 196 (included) (Kamchatka plus Komandorski Is.).
become Japanese.

[lavisj]

This new surrender rule reminds me of the rule that existed before WIF FE. I remember a similar rule in the 4th edition when I was playing it. So I guess it is just reintroducing the old.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Patrice,

What is your proposed alternative? Just to leave the 3 extra ports Russian? I have no vested interest in this - I haven't written any code to support it. What I proposed was just to get the discussion started.

I would give the Japanese this, based on the WiF FE map.
This includes the southern part of Kamchatka, the whole Sakhalin.
On the other hand I would not give any of the northern Ports.

This is fairly simple. All Russian hexes that are :
- Between row 44 (included) and row 64 (included) and between column 152 / 153 (included) and column 172 (included).
- Plus hex 43,170 (northern tip of Sakhalin)
- Between row 40 (included) and row 49 (included) and between columns 185 (included) and column 196 (included) (Kamchatka plus Komandorski Is.).
become Japanese.

This is ok by me. Other opinions?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here is a higher resolution image. The 3 northern ports can be seen if you look closely.

[Zorachus99]

Historically, peace agreements followed natural defensive positions which both sides could use.  Normally this was major rivers, but did incorporate mountain passes.  I'd suggest using the river lines in Siberia.

[lomyrin]

Looks good to me.
 
Lars

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Historically, peace agreements followed natural defensive positions which both sides could use.  Normally this was major rivers, but did incorporate mountain passes.  I'd suggest using the river lines in Siberia.

The original border did use the rivers (Argun and Amur). There is nothing really obvious for the necessary change since the Zeya river runs more or less northwest-southeast and we need a north-south demarkation.

[npilgaard]

This is ok by me. Other opinions?

Looks fine imho.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Historically, peace agreements followed natural defensive positions which both sides could use.  Normally this was major rivers, but did incorporate mountain passes.  I'd suggest using the river lines in Siberia.

The original border did use the rivers (Argun and Amur). There is nothing really obvious for the necessary change since the Zeya river runs more or less northwest-southeast and we need a north-south demarkation.

Well, I'd agree with Zorachus, but as Steve wanted something simple, I thought that something with "between rows" and "between columns" would be the best for him. What I proposed is both simple in this regard, and consistent with what WiF FE the paper game gives to Japan under this new errata. I've asked the designer of the errata, and yes, he intended Kamchatka to be part of the land given.
Doing something finer would need to create subcountries in that area of Russia and decide which go to the Japanese.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Historically, peace agreements followed natural defensive positions which both sides could use.  Normally this was major rivers, but did incorporate mountain passes.  I'd suggest using the river lines in Siberia.

The original border did use the rivers (Argun and Amur). There is nothing really obvious for the necessary change since the Zeya river runs more or less northwest-southeast and we need a north-south demarkation.

Well, I'd agree with Zorachus, but as Steve wanted something simple, I thought that something with "between rows" and "between columns" would be the best for him. What I proposed is both simple in this regard, and consistent with what WiF FE the paper game gives to Japan under this new errata. I've asked the designer of the errata, and yes, he intended Kamchatka to be part of the land given.
Doing something finer would need to create subcountries in that area of Russia and decide which go to the Japanese.

I considered that but it seems like overkill.

This situation won't occur that often, and the impact of which hexes are given to the Japanese won't really matter all that much. Either side has some fine defensive terrain they could use, if they have the troops to defend it. If they don't, then the other side just needs to put together a decent offensive force.