Airdraft loadout

[vettim89]

How does the game engine select which of the possible loadouts available to a specific airframe will be loaded. I know there is a realtion to pilot experience, but are there other factors.

The reason I ask is that there are a number of often used ordinace especially on the US side that are not modeled in the game. If a modder were to add these to the database, is there anyway of knowing if the game engine would actually load them onto the planes?

Specifically I am thinking of these weapons: parafrag bombs, WP cluster weapons, and Napalm. The first two were used extensively in attacking airfields and the latte used late in the war for close air support.

[el cid again]

The biggest problems are

a) Device count - only a few devices will work as weapons - and in most mods all are used - so you get a new one only by losing an old one

b) Hard code - you more or less are supposed to have only one loadout per type of aircraft.

Nemo uses a system of two different versions of the Me-264 - each with a different loadout. [I developed the Me-264 at his request for RHSEOS - then developed the G5N at his request to replace it - although a DIFFERENT G5N was in CHS we didn't use it because of the same reason it was not used IRL - low performance. All forms of RHS use the G5N1-L - the historical TRANSPORT form of the G5N. EOS now uses the G5N2 and G5N3 - up engined versions - the latter with anti-shipping missiles. I developed a G5N4 for Nemo as well. But in the end he did not use any of these - and went to a different Me-264. RHS went the other way - adopting the G5N as more plausable - for EOS where you get some latitude in planes. Nemo's revised Me-264 does not carry the proper fuel - because he could not feed it - the reason he wanted a different plane was it used too much - which is right. In the end he just edited the max load rating so it does not demand so many supplies = fuel] Anyway - that is one answer - use a different slot for each loadout. I don't do that - because I want more plane types.

Instead, RHS uses different loadouts at the AIR GROUP file level. This kind of works - the loadouts even report to players (I did not think they would) - BUT

ONLY units so specified have that loadout

ALL units that upgrade get the default loadout

And the special case units can "lose" it if the player upgrades to something else - and then back to the same plane - then the unit gets default.

When planes change loadout in the game it is hard code:

torpedo bombers carry torpedoes vs ships IF the field is big enough - etc

all planes use extended loadout if the field is too small too

EDIT: WORD TRANSPORT ADDED FOR CLARITY

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The biggest problems are

a) Device count - only a few devices will work as weapons - and in most mods all are used - so you get a new one only by losing an old one

b) Hard code - you more or less are supposed to have only one loadout per type of aircraft.

Nemo uses a system of two different versions of the Me-264 - each with a different loadout. [I developed the Me-264 at his request for RHSEOS - then developed the G5N at his request to replace it - although a DIFFERENT G5N was in CHS we didn't use it because of the same reason it was not used IRL - low performance. All forms of RHS use the G5N1-L - the historical form of the G5N. EOS now uses the G5N2 and G5N3 - up engined versions - the latter with anti-shipping missiles. I developed a G5N4 for Nemo as well. But in the end he did not use any of these - and went to a different Me-264. RHS went the other way - adopting the G5N as more plausable - for EOS where you get some latitude in planes. Nemo's revised Me-264 does not carry the proper fuel - because he could not feed it - the reason he wanted a different plane was it used too much - which is right. In the end he just edited the max load rating so it does not demand so many supplies = fuel] Anyway - that is one answer - use a different slot for each loadout. I don't do that - because I want more plane types.

Instead, RHS uses different loadouts at the AIR GROUP file level. This kind of works - the loadouts even report to players (I did not think they would) - BUT

ONLY units so specified have that loadout

ALL units that upgrade get the default loadout

And the special case units can "lose" it if the player upgrades to something else - and then back to the same plane - then the unit gets default.

When planes change loadout in the game it is hard code:

torpedo bombers carry torpedoes vs ships IF the field is big enough - etc

all planes use extended loadout if the field is too small too

Well actually as I think about it, it doesn't matter because airfield bombardment is not made on a individual plane or device basis. From what I understand, after AAA is resolved all surviving aircraft have their bomb load massed and the damage is computed. So parafrags really would be a useless addition. Unless they could be used by putting B-25's on a sweep mission.

As some one who has never modded the game, I am just trying to figure some things out. So as an Example:

Betty's carry torpedoes against ships if in normal range and bombs at extended range. I assuming TBF's are the same.

But what about the 1000 lb bomb vs 500 lb bomb thing the engine does based on experience. How does that factor in?

Quite frankly the game is screwwed up as far as that goes because a lot of RL sources I read says B-17's routine used 1000 lb bombs on almost ALL antishipping strikes. It was the standard not the exception.

Sorry for the disjointed post but I am just trying to get a handle on things. If I may throw another item into the mix - what about rockets? Why aren't they modled?

[el cid again]

What a B-17 carries varies with the era. When built the B-17 carried 250 pound bombs. The first one that mattes to us - the E - carries 500 pound bombs. Later ones carry 1000 pound bombs. RHS gives you these in both GP and HE forms. Also we have ASW armed versions - with DC as well as bombs - in units (which have [ASW] in their name - units with AP bombs have [AP] after the name and GP [GP]

It is not effective to use the same plane to take out the AA anyway. You go in with a different raid. Bombs from one plane land together - long after they were dropped - and the AA has fired all it can by then.

Do this the night before OR in daylight - send a shorter range mission with smaller bombs - and then a longer range mission with big ones. This is easy to do. The code will send in the long range mission second - unless weather cancells the first one.

Die rolls are used to load you with different bombs on some missions - see the manual for details.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

How does the game engine select which of the possible loadouts available to a specific airframe will be loaded. I know there is a realtion to pilot experience, but are there other factors.

The reason I ask is that there are a number of often used ordinace especially on the US side that are not modeled in the game. If a modder were to add these to the database, is there anyway of knowing if the game engine would actually load them onto the planes?

Specifically I am thinking of these weapons: parafrag bombs, WP cluster weapons, and Napalm. The first two were used extensively in attacking airfields and the latte used late in the war for close air support.

I have found in my mod, co-developed with a german friend, that adding a couple of 100lb cluster bombs seems to gives a nice bang.

I think one of the biggest mistakes was to make low level bombing attacks a morale buster. If anything this was the best way to attack in the jungle airfields, fly in a hundred feet above the terrain would really cut down on the ability to see the raid coming and by the time they were aware of it the planes were over the airfield and gone, unloading masses of para bombs.

[el cid again]

I let the 100 pound cluster represent 3 x 15 kg bombs -

and I have learned this is a problem the way the cluster is defined:

for some reason "smart weapons" are not reduced at extended range


so until now my Ki-30 and Ki-48 had the same load at extended range as normal range.

Instead of not using clusters - I redefined them as normal bombs - and now they do get reduced at extended range.

The small bombs are more effective vs small targets or unarmored ships - particularly if you use effect like I do
- which is square root of weight. That is - ten 100 pound bombs matter more than one 1000 pound bomb. And ten
100 pound clusters matter more still - because I add the effects of 3 x 33 pound bombs together to get it.

[Dili]

Anyone tried to use rockets or any other weapon to model 20mm or bigger guns in anti-shipping?

[el cid again]

RHS has a variety of guns bigger than that - 37 mm - 57 mm - 75 mm - and they all work. Our rockets are more radical - they are
defined as aircraft guns with a ROF (accuracy) of 1 - so they don't shoot too much. They also work fine when strafing a ship.

[Dili]

So are you saying that both work against ships? in AE air thread http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1637444&mpage=26&key
 

[blockquote]quote:

ORIGINAL: Pauk

Will 20mm canon guns be more effective against transports? Usually, they can't even start fire on enemy transports....

[/blockquote]


The short answer is no, I'm afraid. The thing is that air- and naval combat are separate designs with separate device values which creates a disjunction when they interface, fx when an a/c strafes a ship. To align the devices would require us to completely recast one of the two designs, something we've rather shyed away from since the idea is to go gold sometime this century (just trying to understand the relevant code is hard enough).

 
How did you handled this problem?

[el cid again]

You just define the weapon as an aircraft gun - and give it appropriate range, accuracy and firepower. Nemo had me design a whole set of fighter bombers for anti-shipping work - and then he rejected many because they were too late in appearing - and most of the rest are either in his mod or RHS - or both. I am not a big fan of figher bombers in WITP - but Nemo is - just for ship hunting - not for air combat or bombing.

[Dili]

I know what i can define in editor, that is not the issue, is if that "improved" firepower against shipping didnt unbalanced air to air gunnery?

[el cid again]

I see.

Well - I think my rockets are a problem in that they "reload" in the air - they only shoot once - but they will shoot again if the plane is used again. I tried to address that slightly - sometimes you get fewer rockets on the assumption you may shoot them twice for example.

A lot of data is not available because the big weapons mostly appear later - and few use them. So we may yet see some trouble.

Test bed tests are surprising however: RHS does benefit from rating cannon better than MG - but it is not clear the really big guns are a great boon. As IRL they have a very low ROF- and it appears the smaller cannon are more effective in many cases - and that the larger ones (and the rockets pretending to be guns) do not really distort air combat as one might reasonably fear ( and I did fear ). Yet they seem to be really worth having when strafing ships. I suspect that naval routines are more complex and the effect - and penetration - matters - while in air combat it may be not all these fields get used - and anyway there is less use made of them. For example - ships may have armor in mm - but planes do not. So the bigger hits may matter more in the naval case.

In the end Nemo - who has a very good ability to look at data and tell what it will do in the game - he is better at production than I am for example - and he told me what the impact of cannon would be BEFORE I measured it - in the end Nemo was right: big guns work best vs ships. They may also be better against unusually armored airplanes - e.g. Sturmovik in RHS - or airplanes with lots of durability - eg big bombers. But I don't think we have a difinitive sense of this - and I hope to get a better sense of that playing the test games (now also from the Allied side to see the other point of view and data).

[bbbf]

I was involved with some of the original rocket testing in RHS.
 
They worked very well - murder on ships but very few hits on aircraft/