Europe map?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Norman42

If it is agreed that the change will not significantly affect play, can we please do it?

It very much affects play.

It makes the German push into the Low Countries and France much harder. It guarantees the Allies the Dyle river line in force and probably a defended Maas river line too, and also makes Brussels hold out for easily 1 or 2 more impulses. Germany also loses the only airbase hex that a 109 can intercept over Antwerp/Rotterdam/Amsterdam until they can rebase forward(do not underestimate this impact). All this could add a full turn or more to the conquest of France, a domino effect from making Germany crack one more extra river/city line of defences with less air cover.

What this does is *force* Germany into a 1939 DoW on the Netherlands, just to try to get to its normal start line for 1940 Belgium, giving France much more breathing room. The Western Campaign is already rather skewed to the Allies; France is way too strong in 1940. Yes, the map in that area isn't perfect, but making it even harder on Germany is definitely not the direction that needs to be pushed.

A Low Countries DoW in J/F40 is common (3 months earlier then historical) and yet France more often then not still lasts past J/A 1940 (a month or more later then historical). The French defence does not need strengthening.

I am not so sure about all that. I do agree that it forces Germany to DOW the Netherlands. But then doesn't Germany have to do that anyway?

As I understand it, the general consensus for best play is that Germany DOWs the Netherlands an impulse before it DOWs Belgium. If that is the case, then whether Germany of the Netherlands owns this hex before the DOW on Belgium makes no difference. Germany will ocuupy it during the impulse of its DOW on the Netherlands and have the same starting position for its DOW on Belgium as it does now.

Here is a screen shot I created last August to discuss the best (or alternative) defense position for the Dutch and Belgian units. The reserve units (R in upper right corner) are not available until the Turn following the DOW, so they are unlikely to make it onto the map.

The Dutch have one unit, which needs to set up in Amsterdam. Doesn't it? I guess Rotterdam is an alternative, but either way ownership of the hex west of Dusseldorf is irrelevant.

[lomyrin]

I have to agree with Norman and Jagdtiger that changing the map at the Netherlands border causes a large change in play and most certainly changes the map from the Boardgame one - and that ought not to happen all by itself.
 
Fairly often Germany just bypasses the Netherlands instead of DoWing it.  It deprives the CW of a number of convoys early on and if the DoW eventually is simultaneous with Japan's DoW on the Netherlands, it nakes it easier for Japan to take over the NEI with surprise and no CW involvement for a while. With this change Belgium will likely hold out much longer if the Netherlands is bypassed and this play will be less often used.
 
Lars
 
 

[marcuswatney]

I haven't played recently enough to hold a valid opinion on the tactical implications of the change, but are there not attractive strategic implications favouring Japan if the Netherlands remain neutral?  With the map as it is at present and when playing the Axis, the control of that extra unhistorical hex would sorely tempt me to take the long view, leave the Netherlands alone and accept that defeating France was going to be just a little bit tougher.
 
With the clear hex returned to the Netherlands, helping Japan in this way becomes much less attractive ... and the standard approach of a DoW on the Netherlands the impulse before the DoW on Belgium is strengthened.
 
Also, please note that the rail-line between Dusseldorf and Antwerp does cut across the Netherlands in real-life.  It could not be used without declaring war on the Netherlands ... which reinforces my belief that this whole thing was an oversight on Harry's part (like Cernauti), not a subtle design fudge.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wosung
Now something completely different: The tiny island between the harbor Rostock and the island Rügen in the Baltic Sea: "Wollin" could be replaced by "Usedom", which is the much more known Western island. (Ehrm, I never heard of Wollin and I'm German.) Besides, the Heeresversuchsstelle Peenemünde was on Usedom, not on Wollin. And: The shape of the island could be more lengthy. Actually Usedom and Wollin nearly cover the whole Bay of Stettin (Kleines/Großes Haff).

First thing, the shape of the coastlines of Europe were taken directly from WiF FE without modifications.
In the Stettin bay, there were 1 island, to the east.
On this 1944 map, I see that Wollin is the island to the east. I assumed that Usedom (that is more to the west) was melted in the coastline by the map designer. That's why I located Peenemünde on this coastline (In reality, this is an island, I know) and labeled the east island as Wollin. I think I'm not that wrong.

[Norman42]

I do agree that it forces Germany to DOW the Netherlands.

This alone should tell us this isn't a map change to be taken lightly. Germany's options become very limited with this change. They now *must* attack Holland or they will not break through the Belgian/French front.

That is different from the current possiblilities, where Holland is often left for later to coincide with Japans attack, or where Holland is attacked in conjunction with Belgium (ie the historical attack). Losing that hex unhinges any attack on the two combined countries, and pretty much forces Germany into an even earlier attack on Holland in 1939 to secure the approaches to Belgium, or they will be facing a double stack of British or French in Brussels, safely behind the Dyle river, and a possible 1941 conquest of France.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
I agree with Marcus here. Maybe we should contact Harry Rowland in ADG and ask what he thinks. I think this change should become a part of the WIFFE map errata similar to the change we already did with the Cernauti hex in Romania. If we get Harry's permission to give the hex NE of Liege to Holland and move the resource to Düsseldorf then it will become an official part of WIFFE and not only MWIF.

Except that the Cernauti errata came from him to us, and that it suffers absolutely no contradiction. Here, we would need an hexgrid half the size of ours to make the change. The area that belongs to Holland in this area is tiny. I agree that it is good that it increases the necessity for Germany to DoW the Netherlands, but this is a too ENORMOUS change to do it without Harry and all his advisors to agree.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
Maybe we should contact Harry Rowland in ADG and ask what he thinks.

I've done that. I've copied him most of your comments, both the Pros & Cons (Edit : and also gave him the direct link to this forum in case he wants to come and comment directly -- I've already done that dozens of times, and am still dreaming).

Personnaly I have no real opinion about that, slightly prefering to let things the way they are because I think that Geography is best served by being depicted this way, considering the size of the hexgrid and the small size of the bit of land that is Dutch, but the argument that I like in the pros is that it helps avoiding that the Germans ignore the Dutch, which is too easy IMO in WiF.

[lomyrin]

If the map is changed and the Netherlands gains the hex in question it would channel Germany to a DoW on Netherlands as an esential play in the game. This removes a variable from the game and also removes the Japanese gambit on NEI.  Keep  in mind that if Japan could DoW Netherlands and get the surprise on NEI it would accelerate US entry by an extra chit per turn. It would also give the CW an opportunity to DoW Japan, sink Japanese convoys  and garrison Rabaul and add defense to Singapore with a lessened impact on US entry. This would be the risk Japan had to take.  It is not a one sided result.
 
Of course it would be less historical, but then WiF is a game and not a rigorous historical replay. The variability and different strategic approaches one can take to the game is a good part of what makes it so replayable over many years without tiring of it.
 
Lars
 
 

[Joshuatree]

 
From a dutch point of view I do have a question about this map. You are using the name "Zuider Zee" (offically written as "Zuiderzee") The dike itself was finished at may 1932, and opened to the public at sept. 1933.
On 20 sept. 1932 the name "Zuiderzee" was history, from now on it was a lake called "IJsselmeer"
 
IJsselmeer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJsselmeer
 
So yeah, from '32 on it was "IJsselmeer" --->IJsselmeer (sometimes translated as Lake ¨¦ssel, alternative international spelling: Lake Yssel

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Joshuatree



From a dutch point of view I do have a question about this map. You are using the name "Zuider Zee" (offically written as "Zuiderzee") The dike itself was finished at may 1932, and opened to the public at sept. 1933.
On 20 sept. 1932 the name "Zuiderzee" was history, from now on it was a lake called "IJsselmeer"

IJsselmeer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJsselmeer

So yeah, from '32 on it was "IJsselmeer" --->IJsselmeer (sometimes translated as Lake ¨¦ssel, alternative international spelling: Lake Yssel

I learn something new every day. Thanks.

But I wonder if the Dutch still refer to IJsselmeer as Zuiderzee every so often.

[YohanTM2]

Leave it be please. It does effect play so should not be changed for minor cosmetic reasons.

[Joshuatree]

"But I wonder if the Dutch still refer to IJsselmeer as Zuiderzee every so often."
 
We sure do, most elderly people for sure, and many of us still remember it as the sea that turned into a lake. Great place for surfing and swimming and fishing by the way. *And* it was the only place we held the german onslaught back. The dike itself proved to be a killing ground for those soldiers. They surrendered only after Rotterdam was bombed and Holland surrendered.
 
Short story: prior to the war lots of german young men went to work on the dutch farms during the summer. Then when war broke out they came again, to the same farms and area they used to work on, and some of them were recognized by the farmers... Weird huh?   

[marcuswatney]

Patrice, the thinness of the Limburg salient is not a relevant factor.  Cross neutral territory, however small, and it's war!  (Consider Portugal and the tiny sizes of East Timor and Macau!)  Therefore there has to be some sort of penalty for attacking Belgium through that hex.
 
And nobody has yet answered my point that the Dusseldorf to Antwerp rail-line crosses Dutch territory, so it is very wrong to let Germany have its use without penalty.
 
Patrice, could you put up a historical map of Limburg, Liege and the Ardennes, with national borders clearly marked, so people can see what I am talking about?  The choke point between Maastricht and the rough terrain of the Ardennes was a major strategic factor that is completely missing from the game ... and was the principal reason for the attack on the Netherlands in the first place.
 
Surely, apart from the Me-109 point made above, the only significance of the Maastricht hex to peacetime Germany is that it allows a greater projection of force against Liege on the opening impulse?  But, in a game with no ZOCs on the impulse of invasion, do the Belgians ever actually defend Liege?
 
My point is that the threat of a DoW on the Netherlands, with German units then outflanking a forward Belgian defence using a right hook through Rotterdam, is sufficient to discourage a Belgian defence of Liege, whether or not Maastricht is German-controlled ... and on that basis it is therefore safe to be accurate and give the hex to the Netherlands.
 
One critical point: when do the Belgian defenders actually set up?  Do all DoWs have to be made before any invaded neutral sets up, or does each neutral set-up immediately it suffers a DoW?  In other words, at set-up do the Belgians know whether or not they have to cover the Dutch border?
 
Really, defenders ought to set-up immediately they suffer a DoW, because it would be impracticable to rush defenders forward just because a neighbouring country unexpectedly is not invaded.
 
Please would those players most experienced with this version of the game submit the Belgian defence they would use if the Maastricht hex correctly belonged to the Netherlands?  That will then give us something concrete to debate.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Isn't the solution about the hex NE of Liege to simply ask Harry Rowland what he thinks. Maybe he isn't aware of the map inaccuracy and wants to fix it? Or maybe he was aware of it, but decided for game play reasons to make the hex German?

I think it's good to bring to his attention our discussion. E. g. the argument that the rail line from Düsseldorf to Antwerp went via the Netherlands is a good one. If you look at the real map then you will see that the German / Belgian border is not very long. It should only have been 2 hexes wide. The hex west of Saarbrücken is actually Luxembourg and the hex west of Düsseldorf is actually Dutch.

I think it's ahistorical that Germany easily can blitz into Belgium without even DoW'ing the Netherlands. Germany had to attack both countries in the real war. There were reasons for that. With the current border Germany has a 4 hex wide "corridor" to invade Belgium from. So it should be easy to take most of Belgium at the end of the first impulse. Would the Germans have succeeded so well in the real Case Yellow if they hadn't invaded the Netherlands as well?

I guess it's possible to attack the Netherlands in the impulse before you attack Belgium and thus have access to a very long border to attack Belgium.

I believe asking Harry is the way to decide if such a map change is a good thing to do or not.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Patrice, could you put up a historical map of Limburg, Liege and the Ardennes, with national borders clearly marked, so people can see what I am talking about?  The choke point between Maastricht and the rough terrain of the Ardennes was a major strategic factor that is completely missing from the game ... and was the principal reason for the attack on the Netherlands in the first place.

Here is a map. I also added a black line showing what 90 km look like on the map. 90 km is about the distance across an hex.
Also, I have submitted the question of this change to Harry, but the more I look at the map, the less I think we should make it. The hexgrid is simply too large to show that chunck of Dutch land between Belgium & Germany.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

Isn't the solution about the hex NE of Liege to simply ask Harry Rowland what he thinks. Maybe he isn't aware of the map inaccuracy and wants to fix it? Or maybe he was aware of it, but decided for game play reasons to make the hex German?

I think it's good to bring to his attention our discussion. E. g. the argument that the rail line from Düsseldorf to Antwerp went via the Netherlands is a good one. If you look at the real map then you will see that the German / Belgian border is not very long. It should only have been 2 hexes wide. The hex west of Saarbrücken is actually Luxembourg and the hex west of Düsseldorf is actually Dutch.

I believe asking Harry is the way to decide if such a map change is a good thing to do or not.

It's done, see post #327.

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Patrice, could you put up a historical map of Limburg, Liege and the Ardennes, with national borders clearly marked, so people can see what I am talking about? The choke point between Maastricht and the rough terrain of the Ardennes was a major strategic factor that is completely missing from the game ... and was the principal reason for the attack on the Netherlands in the first place.

Here is a map. I also added a black line showing what 90 km look like on the map. 90 km is about the distance across an hex.
Also, I have submitted the question of this change to Harry, but the more I look at the map, the less I think we should make it. The hexgrid is simply too large to show that chunck of Dutch land between Belgium & Germany.

But the importance of the Dutch chunk lies in its political implications for Germany not in its width or length.

Regards

[marcuswatney]

Yes, size doesn't matter ... otherwise, what is the justification for including Macau, or St Pierre & Miquelon?
 
Patrice, thanks for the map, but I was hoping you would find one extending into the Ardennes (say, up to the northern tip of Luxembourg).  Applying your logic about 90km hexes, you will see from such a map that the maximum frontage across which Germany could attack Belgium without invading either the Netherlands or Luxembourg was only 60 km!  Gulp!
 
Even adding a bit on for MWiF's non-existant Luxembourg, the length of Germany's border with Belgium/Luxembourg is only 140 km ... less than two hexes by your measurement!
 
The whole point of my argument is that the Belgium/German border is not just wrong, it is grossly wrong.  At the moment there are four hexes where there should be one-and-a-half.  My request that the border be shortened from four hexes to three is actually rather modest.
 
Between the wars, the German High Command was very concerned at the danger of again suffering the delays caused by Liege in 1914, when Germany respected the Netherlands' neutrality.  Comparing the attacks of 1914 and 1940, you will see that in 1940 the right wing of the German advance went straight through Limburg, outflanking the Belgian defences completely.  This was the reason for invading the Netherlands.  (In my opinion they should not have, for in WWI a neutral Netherlands acted as a gateway past the British blockade, and in WWII would likewise have been more valuable to Germany as a friendly neutral in the mould of Sweden than an occupied nation).
 
Anyone taking up my request to submit a Belgian defence with Maastricht Dutch, to see if it really makes such a difference?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Patrice, thanks for the map, but I was hoping you would find one extending into the Ardennes (say, up to the northern tip of Luxembourg).  Applying your logic about 90km hexes, you will see from such a map that the maximum frontage across which Germany could attack Belgium without invading either the Netherlands or Luxembourg was only 60 km!  Gulp!

It is not "my" logic, it is the average calculated scale of a MWiF hex : 89 km. Around Lowlands the scale may be a bit different, 89 km is an overall average that I calculated.
Here is another map.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

The use of rail lines through neutrals is permitted for getting resources to factories. Spain provides a conduit for French North African resources through Gibraltar using only rail lines and the straits hex - no convoys required.

Germany does not need to use the Antwerp-Dusseldorf rail line for moving troops, since there are many alternatives once Belgium has fallen. And Belgium will have fallen is Antwerp has been taken and cleared of enemy ZOCs such that rail lines could be used.