Still finding it very difficult to master this game

[thistlebarrow]

First I would like to thank Matrix for producing the tutorial, though I do think it should have been included with the game when bought. In its way the Tutorial is fine, but I am still finding it very difficult to play this game. There have been a lot of messages in a similar mode, so obviously I am not alone.

It is clear reading all the messages that there are two types of owners of this game. Those who played the board game, many of whom find it difficult to understand why the rest of us are moaning about how difficult it is to play the game. The the rest of us, who have struggled to understand it, and often failed completely. Or at least I have.

I acknowledge that Matrix are trying to solve the problem. I also acknowledge that there appear to be serious problems playing at a more advanced level, and that those users who can play the game would rather that Matix put all of their eforts into sorting out the A1 etc. However I would suggest that the first responsibility of Matrix should be making the game playable by ANYONE who has spent their hard earned cash to buy a copy. It should not be necessary to have any previous experience of the board game. It should not be necessary to be experienced in Matrix or any other PC game.

I have a limited experience of PC games, and all of it with Napoleonic games. I have a wide knowledge of the period, including both military and civil. However I find myself completely unable to get a game going. I have read the printed tutorial and followed the set up, but I can not get beyond that.

Now there is no point in just complaining, unless we can suggest a solution, andI have a very simple one. In every other PC game I have bought there has been a tutorial game which explains the interface and the game itself. These usually take the form of a short game which explains which keys to press to advance, change formation, melee etc. Why can Matrix not now produce something similar. I would suggest that this should cover initial set up in a very simple step by step manner. Then there should be a simple campaign involving two nations to explain how you invade, how you defend, and how you win. Both of these should assume that the novice knows nothing about the napoleonic period nor about Empire in Arms. They should contain sufficient instructions for such a novice to be able to set up and play the game without any further questions.

If it is not possible for Matrix to provide such an enhancement then I believe the time has come when they should refund the purchase price to any buyer who is unhappy with their purchase. If I had bought this game from my local computer shop I would long ago have demanded my money back as I really do feel that I have been sold a game under false pretences.

If however such an enhancement can be provided, and sooner rather than later, I am still willing to persevere in the learning process in the hope that I will end up with what I thought I had bought. An enjoyable Napoleonic campaign game..

[Erik Rutins]

Thistlebarrow,

ORIGINAL: thistlebarrow
Now there is no point in just complaining, unless we can suggest a solution, andI have a very simple one. In every other PC game I have bought there has been a tutorial game which explains the interface and the game itself. These usually take the form of a short game which explains which keys to press to advance, change formation, melee etc. Why can Matrix not now produce something similar. I would suggest that this should cover initial set up in a very simple step by step manner. Then there should be a simple campaign involving two nations to explain how you invade, how you defend, and how you win. Both of these should assume that the novice knows nothing about the napoleonic period nor about Empire in Arms. They should contain sufficient instructions for such a novice to be able to set up and play the game without any further questions.

Betweem the tutorial guide (which is being updated again, btw) and the game manual and the in-game tips, which areas exactly do you feel are not explained clearly enough? EIA will always be a complex game but we're happy to make every effort to explain how to play.

Regards,

- Erik

[thistlebarrow]

Hi Eric

I am sorry if I have not made myself clear. I find the whole mechanics of the game difficult to grasp. For example I know if I am France that I want to defend the coast and invade Bavaria. But I simply do not know how to do that. I realise that the game is intended to be complicated, and I have no problem with that. In fact I would dearly love to be able to play a complicated Napoleonic campaign. That is the reason I bought this game in the first place.

I have not bought a Matrix game before. However I have played the napoleonic version of Cossacks, Breakaways WNLB and ANGV. Prior to that I played 1813. With all of these games I mastered the mechanics of the game within half an hour, due to the step by step tutorial games included with the purchase. 1813 was quite a complicated game concept, but it was also very easy to master.

It is not the campaign strategy that I am complaining about. It is the game mechanics which allow me to do what I want to do.

I hope that you will agree that this is not an isolated complaint. There have been many postings from other purchasers who have experienced the same problem. It is not good enough to say this is a complicated game. If a game is sold for general use then it should be presented in such a way that no previous experience or knowledge is necessary to master the mechanics of it. That is to say the basic user interface of setting up and fighting a campaign. The complex part should be mastering the strategy and tactics needed to achieve the objective.

As I said earlier, I acknowledge that Matrix is making efforts to put this right. But an inter active introductory game would be much easier to master than a written tutorial. Why was it considered unnecessary to provide such a simple tool, particularly when you agree that it is a complex game? More imortant is it possible to provide such a tool at this stage. I believe that there is clearly enough evidence in previous posts to confirm the need for something similar.

I do hope that Matrix will listen to all the heartfelt complaints about how difficult this game is for those who have not had previous experience of the board game. There is clearly a need for a good Napoleonic campaign PC game, and it would seem that this product could fill that need. But please do not dismiss those of us who are struggling, or imply that it is somehow our fault.

regards

thistlebarrow

[Marshall Ellis]

Thistlebarrow:
 
I would be happy to explain in more detail to help! The interface was designed as follows:
Buttons available at all times are the buttons across the top of the screen. Phase buttons are at the bottom left and these buttons will change for each phase. The current selected unit is in the bottom middle then the current selected area then the strategic mini map. The interface was designed so that you can play the game without touching a key on the keyboard, if you want.
 
To answer your example question, if you are France and you want to guard your coast and invade Bavaria then you should do thie following things:
 
To protect your coast:
----------------------
I would always make sure that you have a corps or two in Lille. This area is the only with a possible land path from Great Britain. You can (in your setup phase) simply click the view units button at the top then select a corps then place it in Lille after which you could dbl-click the unit to place factors inside of it. You can also select a unit already on the board then dbl-click the area Lille which should relocate that unit to Lille. If you want to do this after setup then you will have to wait until the land move phase where you simply click the corps to move then the area to move it to.  I would also make sure that your ports are garrisoned enough to protect from sea invasions. These invasions are easier when the enemy gains one of your ports which could be used for supply.
 
To invade Bavaria:
------------------
After your setup click the end phase button at the top 2nd from the left. You should now be in your diplomacy phase. During your diplomacy phase, select any area in the nation of Bavaria then select the phase button to Declare War (bottom left) then end your phase again. You could then move units into Bavaria during your land move phase. Take the capital and hold it for a month and you'll get her!
 
Tell me what other questions you may have and I will be happy to help!
 
 
 
 
 
 

[pzgndr]

It is the game mechanics which allow me to do what I want to do.

An annotated game AAR for beginners would be helpful, something beyond the tutorial. Probably about 6 months worth of game play, to include two economic phases? Either France or Britain, to show both land and naval activities. Obviously some players need to see things in action.

It is not the campaign strategy that I am complaining about.

I'm on the other side of the newbie coin. I didn't have much trouble picking up the game mechanics and using the interface. I know generally what I'd like to do as I play, but I'm still struggling with the nuances of diplomacy and combat in this game. For diplomacy, knowing when to declare wars and how to negotiate surrenders require long term considerations. For combat, knowing how to best employ leaders and chits is a fascinating challenge. I'm at the point where I don't really know what I don't know and I'm leery about learning wrong lessons from the AI. So, some strategy and tactics guides would be helpful here. The original EiA rules had strategy notes and other tips provided; these should be added to this game's documentation. Annotated examples of various diplomatic and combat situations would be helpful too. I've already suggested in-game popups or other player aids to at least show some objective pros/cons for various options based on the situation. There's a lot of subtlety to understand in this game!

[Marshall Ellis]

I think the strategy guide could be very useful as well. I actually think that some of you guys are better qualified than I. Send me some tips and I'll save / compile them into a list, IF you want???
 
What about screen recordings?
 
 
 

[thistlebarrow]

Hi Marshall

thank you for your prompt reply. However you seem to be mssing the point of my post.

To be honest I do not know what I need to know! I know that I am unable to play the game. I know that I have mastered previous games within a very short time, and that I have struggled with this one for a very long time. It is very tempting to simply unload the game and put it down to experience, and I suspect that many would do this. However I really want to master this game, and I really want to be able to play complicated Napoleonic campaigns with it.

Please explain why you are not prepared to produce a simple, step by step tutorial game similar to those provided with the other games I have quoted.

regards

Thistlebarrow

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: thistlebarrow

Hi Marshall

thank you for your prompt reply. However you seem to be mssing the point of my post.

To be honest I do not know what I need to know! I know that I am unable to play the game. I know that I have mastered previous games within a very short time, and that I have struggled with this one for a very long time. It is very tempting to simply unload the game and put it down to experience, and I suspect that many would do this. However I really want to master this game, and I really want to be able to play complicated Napoleonic campaigns with it.

Please explain why you are not prepared to produce a simple, step by step tutorial game similar to those provided with the other games I have quoted.

regards

Thistlebarrow

I think I am misunderstanding you also. Is it the game mechanics: moving a corps, loading a naval unit, moving a naval unit, building a supply chain, etc, etc... that you are having problems with? Or is it that you don't understand how to "defend the coast" or "attack bavaria"?

If you mean game mechanics then by all means, ok. Yes, the mechanics and interface of the game are slightly counter-intuitive. And by slightly, I really mean A LOT.

If you mean strategy-wise, well then, this is not a game you should plan on mastering anytime soon. It's a VERY complex game that no one really "masters".

Have you read the manual all the way through? Given, the manual is in VERY short supply of telling you how to do things with the interface. It is very poor at bringing together what you can do (which the manual tells you) and how to do that in the interface (which the manual does not do a good job of).

Someone had started a "tutorial" PBEM game, not sure if that is still around or not or if he is planning on getting another one going.

[Marshall Ellis]

Thistlebarrow:
 
There is a tutorial thread in the forums. Have you seen this yet or do you need a little more or something else?
 
 
 

[Jimmer]

Thistlebarrow,
 
I think the best way to learn this game is to play it with humans. Now, because you are new to the game, you're likely to get waxed. However, most EIA players will "go soft" on a rookie.
 
You don't have to play a full game. Even the first couple of months would work. But, if you don't intend on playing a full game, make sure the other players know that.
 
I started a "tutorial" game a few months back. We had some hiccups (actually, downright disasters), mainly because of multiple versions, players leaving, not knowing what I was doing (I was the host), etc. But, I think the players have learned a little from it.
 
Post a message in the "Opponents wanted" section. Ask for a couple of rookies to join in, and ask for at least two really experienced players. These two should play GB and France, because those are the most complicated nations. Also, make sure someone experienced at hosting a game can be the "Host". This is where my tutorial game failed: I was learning, too, and it didn't go well.
 
Make sure you tell them it's going to be a learning experience, not a "real game". I'm pretty sure you will get quite a few takers on both sides (experienced and rookie).
 
I would play without winter movement rules, fog of war, or piracy. They are good rules, but they complicate things needlessly at the beginning. For a game you don't intend to finish, they're not worth the effort.

[thistlebarrow]

Marshal

You replied "There is a tutorial thread in the forums. Have you seen this yet or do you need a little more or something else?".

I have read all of the tutorials, I have even reseached Google for all references to he board game. I have had the game for about 6 months, and have spent many hours trying to master it. To be honest had I read any of the more recent postings pointing out how hard it is to learn I would probably not have bought the game.

I downloaded the game on line, but bought a set so that I could get the game manual. I must say it is one of the least useful I have ever read. I find it hard to believe any newbie could pick up the game from the information provided therein. I then read all of the existing, and subsequent, postings to try and grasp the game. Most I could not understand, because they dealt with the more advanced game and I have not got to grips with the essentials. I was delighted with the new tutorial manual, and have spent many hours working on that. It might be me, but I still do not grasp the essentials.

Please read my last posting again. I do not know if a tutorial game would solve the problem, but I believe it might. Why has one not been included with the original game, and why can it not be issued now?

Regards

Thistlebarrow

[thistlebarrow]

Jimmer

Thank you for your suggestions. I would like to play another person, but I do not feel that I can do so until I can grasp the mechanics of the game. I am not sure how the tutorial games work, but would another player really be prepared to teach me the game from basics?

Even if someone were prepared to do so, it should not be necessary. If I buy a commercially available PC game I expect it to be user friendly enough for me to be able to play it without having to rely on the good will of strangers to enable me to do so. If a PC game is offered for sale, and there is no proviso that it can only be played by people with special previous experience or knowledge, the it is down to the manufacturer to ensure that the interface is such that any reasonably intelligent person can play it. It is clear from a lot of earlier postings that quite a few reasonably intelligent people, or at least articulate ones, can not do so with this game.

Having said all of that, if there is anyone out there who would be preprared to teach me how to use the game I would be more than grateful.

regards

Thistlebarrow

[bOrIuM]

Sometimes, you have to master things by yourself,

This said, you have to understand the mechanic of the game, I mean, EiA, not the computer game. Learn the different turns, the moral, the size of corps, the influence of Generals, the terrain, etc. Be sure you understand the mechanic aspect of the game. After, you will be able to do links between the buttons of the compgame and the game itself, it will be much easier... to help you with the thousands of rules, there is a great site, but the official rules cover up only about the half of the rules to be able to play on board. So goind directly on the computer may be hard cause a lot of rules are played by the computer, thats normal.

http://members.fortunecity.com/lobodeoro080888/eia/

EiA IS a very complex game with tons of rules. You should learn them before starting to play. After that you can try your own way to play it. the tutorial just help you with the way to move, not the way to play.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: thistlebarrow

Jimmer

Thank you for your suggestions. I would like to play another person, but I do not feel that I can do so until I can grasp the mechanics of the game. I am not sure how the tutorial games work, but would another player really be prepared to teach me the game from basics?

Even if someone were prepared to do so, it should not be necessary. If I buy a commercially available PC game I expect it to be user friendly enough for me to be able to play it without having to rely on the good will of strangers to enable me to do so. If a PC game is offered for sale, and there is no proviso that it can only be played by people with special previous experience or knowledge, the it is down to the manufacturer to ensure that the interface is such that any reasonably intelligent person can play it. It is clear from a lot of earlier postings that quite a few reasonably intelligent people, or at least articulate ones, can not do so with this game.

Having said all of that, if there is anyone out there who would be preprared to teach me how to use the game I would be more than grateful.

regards

Thistlebarrow

If I see such a game request come up, I'm going to join it. It will have to be short-term (up to a year of game time) and with experience players who have a commitment to helping more than to winning. Also, I would like someone who knows how to host a game to take the reins of hosting. If those three criteria are met, it is my intent to join at least one such game. Probably no more than one at a time, though.

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Thistlebarrow,

ORIGINAL: thistlebarrow
I am sorry if I have not made myself clear. I find the whole mechanics of the game difficult to grasp. For example I know if I am France that I want to defend the coast and invade Bavaria. But I simply do not know how to do that. I realise that the game is intended to be complicated, and I have no problem with that. In fact I would dearly love to be able to play a complicated Napoleonic campaign. That is the reason I bought this game in the first place.

Ok - I thought the tutorial guide would help with this kind of thing, but I guess we need to do more.

I have not bought a Matrix game before. However I have played the napoleonic version of Cossacks, Breakaways WNLB and ANGV. Prior to that I played 1813. With all of these games I mastered the mechanics of the game within half an hour, due to the step by step tutorial games included with the purchase. 1813 was quite a complicated game concept, but it was also very easy to master.

EIA is not exactly a typical Matrix game either - it's one of the most complex for sure and unfortunately also from feedback we should have done a better job on the manual. In hindsight, I think the manual was geared too much towards players that already knew how to play EIA and I'm sorry we didn't correct that before release. The Tutorial Guide was our attempt to help new players get up to speed and over the initial learning curve so that the manual would become more useful.

It is not the campaign strategy that I am complaining about. It is the game mechanics which allow me to do what I want to do.

Ok, so you really need a dedicated interface tutorial of some kind from the sound of it?

It is not good enough to say this is a complicated game. If a game is sold for general use then it should be presented in such a way that no previous experience or knowledge is necessary to master the mechanics of it. <snip> I do hope that Matrix will listen to all the heartfelt complaints about how difficult this game is for those who have not had previous experience of the board game. There is clearly a need for a good Napoleonic campaign PC game, and it would seem that this product could fill that need. But please do not dismiss those of us who are struggling, or imply that it is somehow our fault.

Whoah there - we're not dismissing anything and we _are_ listening and trying to make improvements where necessary.

Based on this post, I'm going to add to our work list to do a few video interface tutorials for all the basic tasks. These will take some time to do, but we'll make it happen. I agree with you that we should have had more in the way of tutorials as part of the initial release.

Regards,

- Erik

[Jimmer]

Erik,
&nbsp;
You might want to check into whether you can "script" a game. Not a whole game, but just a month or three. By "script", I mean have all of the choices pre-selected: Die rolls, declarations of war by AI players, etc. Also, the human player's moves are scripted as well, but he has to actually click on the correct choices to continue.
&nbsp;
I don't know if this is even possible (Marshall?). It might be do-able in a web format or&nbsp;false facade of the game format,&nbsp;if not with the actual game engine.
&nbsp;
In such a "tutorial", you don't have to cover everything. You just need to have enough that players can get a basic understanding of the game itself and of the interface.
&nbsp;
Marshall, if it can be done inside the game engine, but you would like to know what choices to make, let me know and I'll draw up an outline for you. After having taken some guys through a month, tutorial style, I think I have some good ideas as to what this can include. But, ALL of the choices must be scripted for it to work.

[thistlebarrow]

Erik

Thank you for your constructive reply. I am sure that it would be a great help to many novice players to have such a useful guide.

You quoted from two of my replies. The first was for yourself. The second was in response to a suggestion that I should ask another player on the forum to help me learn the mechanics. I was pointing out that this is the responsibility of Matrix, which you have generously accepted, and not another gamer. So please do not take offence that was not intended.

I hope that you may be able to produce a downloadable tutorial along the lines I have suggested in the near future.

I would also like to record my appreciation that you have taken on board the fact that this game was released without sufficient tutorial aids.

Thistlebarrow

[Grapeshot Bob]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I agree with you that we should have had more in the way of tutorials as part of the initial release.

Yes. I also would like to thank you for acknowledging the lack of proper teaching in the game when it was released. I still think the game should only have been released as a PBEM game if it is "too complex" to program with a relatively challenging AI.

I'm also saddened by the constant wall I run into with some (but not all) grognard players of the board game who seem to have absolutely no patience for the rest of us. Although, I will state for the record that the people making the game and Matrix have been receptive of criticism regarding a game they made that, in my opinion, was not properly vetted through a rigorous beta test.

In-game tutorials would have been so helpful and likely would have gone a long way to minimising criticism because the lack of tutorials suggest that the developers didn't really design the game for newbies to EiA and didn't realise that the game interface might not be very user friendly to first-time players.

In-game tutorials are pretty much standard on computer games of all types - not just wargames.

I would not have bought this game if I had known about the lack of tutorials and the buggy interface and poor AI. Heck, I sometimes get 3 e-mails a day describing some problem that someone has found.

AiW isn't quite what I expected but it might be playable after a few more patches. I'll check back after a few months to see how things are going.



GSB

[Murat]

Well I did not go 6 months but before there was a tutorial to download I did this: tm.asp?m=1693001 which some people seemed to have gotten help from. As for strategy, this thread addresses that but as with anything everyone has an opinion and you will get much variation in strategy: tm.asp?m=688121&mpage=2&key=

[Marshall Ellis]

ORIGINAL: thistlebarrow

Marshal

You replied "There is a tutorial thread in the forums. Have you seen this yet or do you need a little more or something else?".

I have read all of the tutorials, I have even reseached Google for all references to he board game. I have had the game for about 6 months, and have spent many hours trying to master it. To be honest had I read any of the more recent postings pointing out how hard it is to learn I would probably not have bought the game.

I downloaded the game on line, but bought a set so that I could get the game manual. I must say it is one of the least useful I have ever read. I find it hard to believe any newbie could pick up the game from the information provided therein. I then read all of the existing, and subsequent, postings to try and grasp the game. Most I could not understand, because they dealt with the more advanced game and I have not got to grips with the essentials. I was delighted with the new tutorial manual, and have spent many hours working on that. It might be me, but I still do not grasp the essentials.

Please read my last posting again. I do not know if a tutorial game would solve the problem, but I believe it might. Why has one not been included with the original game, and why can it not be issued now?

Regards

Thistlebarrow

Thistlebarrow:

Not a lot of people asked for it so we didn't include this nor even plan it BUT that doesn't mean that we cannot do it! I don't want to put a "NO" to this issue or just discard it. If it is something that would help then I am will look at this. Anybody else think this would help (No, this won't go ahead of AI or critical fixes or even the editor)?