Still finding it very difficult to master this game

[NeverMan]

Yes, I think this would greatly help a lot of people and their frustration. I also think that it should go before the editor. IMO, the editor is the last thing that needs to be done.

[Marshall Ellis]

What would you like to see in a tutorial game?
 
 

[borner]

While many people - myself included - have pounded on poor Marshall about the poor quality of the AI, it is still good enough to get a feel for the game. More so if you consider that once you learn what you are doing, the AI is not much of a threat, so you can play around with thigns a bit more.
 
I would consider playing a nation such as France, Russia or GB and just go through some phases against the AI. In combat, the AI will scatter units all over the map, but it will give you practice to move, keep in supply, practice with the combat system. Just remember that what the AI will do, and what human players will do, is night and day.
 
Players have also posted some excellent notes on the forums on the good and bad aspects of each nation. When you do play your first PBEM game, look for a nation like Prussia ( which almost always has strong ties to GB and Aus, and thus good allies to help you, or Turkey, that can get beat into the ground several times and still get enough points to win. I would also look for a game where the players are using the "old" victory system, where everyone can win, as it will probably make things a bit less bloodthirsty
 
just my two cents, and good luck to all the new players trying to dive in. Give it time, and I am sure it will be well worth it!
 
 

[borner]

P.S. Yes, I second the thought that the editor can wait!

[Marshall Ellis]

10-4 on the editor waiting.
So, we will look at a tutorial game before the editor.
What kind of stuff would you want to see in a tutorial?
 

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

What would you like to see in a tutorial game?

Scripting. Every move, every die roll, every piece of action for a set period of time should be completely scripted.

It does NOT have to use the game engine for this. Plenty of games use a different engine to run the tutorial than they use for the main game. You might have to or choose to use pieces of it (the map, for example).

The player learning how to play should be given one nation (for the first pass at a tutorial, don't even make it an option to do others). I suggest Spain, as Spain is the easiest one to completely avoid war with for as long as desired.

In addition to scripting the moves, force the human player to do the mouse clicks/keystrokes needed to perform each step. If he gets it wrong, bring up a balloon explaining the next step. If he gets it right, continue.

Finally, the moves should not be geared towards teaching any kind of strategy. That should be done separately (probably by humans, not a computer). Instead, focus on using every single feature of the interface in, say, six months of game time. War on minors, adding or removing leaders, checking the log, adding factors, moving units, transporting, etc.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: thistlebarrow

The second was in response to a suggestion that I should ask another player on the forum to help me learn the mechanics. I was pointing out that this is the responsibility of Matrix, which you have generously accepted, and not another gamer.

I think you are missing the point.

Would you accept a challenge to become a top-rated chess player? If so, how would you do it? Read the manual? Hogwash. The manual for chess fits comfortably on a half-sheet of paper. You can learn the basic mechanics of chess from a manual, but you need far more detailed instructions if you want to get good at it.

EiA is similar, except it's several orders of magnitude more complicated than chess. Mastering chess CAN be done, with enough effort and intelligence. Mastering EiA most likely cannot be done. It's just too complex a game for that.

So, to master chess, you would need:

• A manual
• Playing time
• Opponents
• Book-learning
• etc.

Can you possibly master a game that's far more complicated using fewer elements? Playing one game through six months is not going to do it. And, playing against the AI isn't going to, either. It's ONE element. But, you will need all of the above listed elements and more.

[Grapeshot Bob]

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

What would you like to see in a tutorial game?

Scripting. Every move, every die roll, every piece of action for a set period of time should be completely scripted.

It does NOT have to use the game engine for this. Plenty of games use a different engine to run the tutorial than they use for the main game. You might have to or choose to use pieces of it (the map, for example).

The player learning how to play should be given one nation (for the first pass at a tutorial, don't even make it an option to do others). I suggest Spain, as Spain is the easiest one to completely avoid war with for as long as desired.

In addition to scripting the moves, force the human player to do the mouse clicks/keystrokes needed to perform each step. If he gets it wrong, bring up a balloon explaining the next step. If he gets it right, continue.

Finally, the moves should not be geared towards teaching any kind of strategy. That should be done separately (probably by humans, not a computer). Instead, focus on using every single feature of the interface in, say, six months of game time. War on minors, adding or removing leaders, checking the log, adding factors, moving units, transporting, etc.

Yes.

This should not be a "set up guide", it should be a limited form of the game, specifically set up to explain simple concepts and introduce the player to the UI.

Every single mouse click and choice on the interface should be explained. A window should open and explain what the player will be learning, then ask the player to do certain mouse clicks and choices. The game should not proceed until the player makes the appropriate decisions. The player should never be allowed to deviate from the script. Any UI buttons not directly involved in teaching a specific concept should be disabled.

If you need an example of what I'm talking about, download the demo of AGEOD's American Civil War - The Blue and the Grey.

http://www.ageod.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=147

Select Download the free AACW demo, NOW!

That game is also very complex but the tutorials (which are included in the demo) are very helpful.



GSB

[pzgndr]

The original EiA board game tutorial should be sufficient. [:D]

[igor7111]

this actually sounds like it WOULD be very helpful. is it available online anywhere? (I obviously don't own the board game).

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

The original EiA board game tutorial should be sufficient. [:D]

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: igor7111


this actually sounds like it WOULD be very helpful. is it available online anywhere? (I obviously don't own the board game).

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

The original EiA board game tutorial should be sufficient. [:D]

I think he was being sarcastic. The only original EiA board game tutorial I ever had was the rulebook and a group of friends.

On that note, I agree with Grape Bob about how the tutorial should be done.

[gwheelock]

As a side suggestion - while you are creating the tutorial - create a varient of that game that can
ONLY play the tutorial & you could post that as a freebie/demo to drum up more sales. 

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: gwheelock

As a side suggestion - while you are creating the tutorial - create a varient of that game that can
ONLY play the tutorial & you could post that as a freebie/demo to drum up more sales. 

That idea dovetails into my idea very well, if it can be done. Excellent idea!

[Marshall Ellis]

All good suggestions guys.
Appreciate them!
 

[Grapeshot Bob]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

The original EiA board game tutorial should be sufficient. [:D]

No it wouldn't.

Respectfully I have to disagree. Unless you were kidding, in which case I apologise for being a d*ck.

How do you explain the UI and all it's choices? How to purchase units, place corps, select leaders, start production, change diplomacy settings, etc?



GSB

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: Grapeshot Bob

Respectfully I have to disagree.

No it wouldn't.[/i]

How do you explain the UI and all it's choices? How to purchase units, place corps, select leaders, start production, change diplomacy settings, etc?



GSB

His comment was either a joke or a sly way of patting his own back: There was no tutorial in the original game. People had to learn the game the hard way: By playing it.

[pzgndr]

I think he was being sarcastic. The only original EiA board game tutorial I ever had was the rulebook and a group of friends.

Of course I was being sarcastic. Go back to post #5 where I agree a tutorial would be helpful.

I do question what has happened over the past few decades to wargamers' ability to figure stuff out. Back in the day of board wargames with thick rulebooks and maybe a few examples of play described, players had to figure it all out on their own without tutorials, AI, internet forums, etc. You had to wait for a monthly magazine to arrive in your mailbox to maybe have a feature article, AAR game playback, or rules errata to read. Argh, it built character. [;)]

[Murat]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Of course I was being sarcastic. Go back to post #5 where I agree a tutorial would be helpful.

I do question what has happened over the past few decades to wargamers' ability to figure stuff out. Back in the day of board wargames with thick rulebooks and maybe a few examples of play described, players had to figure it all out on their own without tutorials, AI, internet forums, etc. You had to wait for a monthly magazine to arrive in your mailbox to maybe have a feature article, AAR game playback, or rules errata to read. Argh, it built character. [;)]

And we ate SAND because we couldn't afford nothing else! And we played in the ARCTIC SNOWS because there was no fancy email, no post office, you had to walk your next move to your opponent and it was uphill both ways and we didn't have any shoes. [:'(]

[igor7111]

while i agree in general with what you say, i think it's more the interface issues that are giving people problems. once you move to the next sequence, if you forgot to do something, like declare war, you're outta luck. it's a sequencing issue.

the old boardgames, hell, you coulda been playing it all wrong and you'd never know, unless you ran up against a player who knew better.

but i hear ya.....we made do with the frikkin rule book,
rule 35.12.6.a says you have to have a corps there before you can place a depot.....musta missed that one. i stuck a depot there and nobody stopped me, so who knew?

[Marshall Ellis]

igor7111:
 
You bring up an interesting point that I have noticed as well. It seems that every gaming groups agrees to certain interpretations / implementations of rules (Some become house rules). For example, I have been in a PBEM game where the players were aloud to move ships with depots on them without destroying the depot??!! Nobody argued so it was aloud. Often nobody says anything because as soon as a rules dispute pops up, BAM one week delay with hundreds of emails quoting rules, etc. Hopefully, I will help get rid of this sort of stuff (eventually).