AI for MWiF - USSR

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: bredsjomagnus

Yes, I agree. If USSR get that major port Finland will IMHO have a huge red problem on there neck.

Yes, a problem called "conquest".

[bredsjomagnus]

Exactly

[peskpesk]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
This said, I'd personaly prefer to have a land unit there.

So IF we switch

FROM

IF OptRule.Divisions
1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Helsinki OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo
1 INF DIV, Viipuri

TO something like

IF OptRule.Divisions
1 INF DIV, Helsinki
1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Viipuri OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo


Finland is safer.

[npilgaard]

Another condition could be whether Germany has taken Norway. In that case, iirc, they are allowed to rail units to Finland.
If Germany has units to spare (not heavily engaged elsewhere), that would make Oulu important - if even a DIV invades there the Germans are stopped, so placing a Finnish DIV would probably be a good idea (or otoh - maybe the USSR can just invade further north cutting the rail anyway - but at least then they won't have a port upthere)

Other things to consider:
- where is the USSR TRS located - in the Black Sea or Leningrad. If in Leningrad then a DIV-invasion of an unprotected Finnish port followed by debark next turn can make the situation worse than just a single DIV in the back
- does USSR have ships with invasion forces in the Baltic already. When not active and with combined impulses only 1 naval unit can move each turn, limiting the invasion threat - but if a few SCSs with DIVs are available then several landing sites are possible.
- are USSR active - in that case the entire fleet can move on the invasion impulse
- is it winter - in that case the Lake is often frozen
- is the non-ZoC on surprise optional rules used - as with all minors, that would weaken the defense somewhat making invasions/paradrops/moving across the lake during winter easier (and especially the '39 setup needs to be modified)
- is Germany prepared to help, and are the German TRS/AMPH available - in that case perhaps a second unit in Viipuri (or maybe even any unit) is not necessary, as Germans can be debarked there during the following impulse (if port is not closed due to winter)

Also, maybe there are a couple of setup variants that are fairly equal in strength - than I think it would be a good idea to include them all and then have one selected random, so the USSR player won't know the setup with 100% certainty - that will provide him with to great an advantage, imho. So maybe 2-3 setups can be devised for each scenario - or is that to much work? After all, there are lots of minors to decide setup for, and lots of conditions for each setup. Otoh, it is fun to consider setups, and most players will give it a try, I think.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: npilgaard

Another condition could be whether Germany has taken Norway. In that case, iirc, they are allowed to rail units to Finland.
If Germany has units to spare (not heavily engaged elsewhere), that would make Oulu important - if even a DIV invades there the Germans are stopped, so placing a Finnish DIV would probably be a good idea (or otoh - maybe the USSR can just invade further north cutting the rail anyway - but at least then they won't have a port upthere)

Other things to consider:
- where is the USSR TRS located - in the Black Sea or Leningrad. If in Leningrad then a DIV-invasion of an unprotected Finnish port followed by debark next turn can make the situation worse than just a single DIV in the back
- does USSR have ships with invasion forces in the Baltic already. When not active and with combined impulses only 1 naval unit can move each turn, limiting the invasion threat - but if a few SCSs with DIVs are available then several landing sites are possible.
- are USSR active - in that case the entire fleet can move on the invasion impulse
- is it winter - in that case the Lake is often frozen
- is the non-ZoC on surprise optional rules used - as with all minors, that would weaken the defense somewhat making invasions/paradrops/moving across the lake during winter easier (and especially the '39 setup needs to be modified)
- is Germany prepared to help, and are the German TRS/AMPH available - in that case perhaps a second unit in Viipuri (or maybe even any unit) is not necessary, as Germans can be debarked there during the following impulse (if port is not closed due to winter)

Also, maybe there are a couple of setup variants that are fairly equal in strength - than I think it would be a good idea to include them all and then have one selected random, so the USSR player won't know the setup with 100% certainty - that will provide him with to great an advantage, imho. So maybe 2-3 setups can be devised for each scenario - or is that to much work? After all, there are lots of minors to decide setup for, and lots of conditions for each setup. Otoh, it is fun to consider setups, and most players will give it a try, I think.

Yes.

I know that there are a lot of possibilites for setting up Finland, which is one of the reasons I like analyzing it now. As I said before, if we can work out the details for setting up Finland, then (1) the data structure for selecting and placing units, (2) how we handle optional rules, and (3) how we handle numerous other game conditions will be worked out.

I have two goals: get the AIO language defined so it is robust enough to accommodate all this stuff, and (2) decide how to set up Finland. They really go hand-in-hand.

Therefore,...

For each of the conditions you listed, what adjustments would you make to the Finnish setup?

[wfzimmerman]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: npilgaard

Another condition could be whether Germany has taken Norway. In that case, iirc, they are allowed to rail units to Finland.
If Germany has units to spare (not heavily engaged elsewhere), that would make Oulu important - if even a DIV invades there the Germans are stopped, so placing a Finnish DIV would probably be a good idea (or otoh - maybe the USSR can just invade further north cutting the rail anyway - but at least then they won't have a port upthere)

Other things to consider:
- where is the USSR TRS located - in the Black Sea or Leningrad. If in Leningrad then a DIV-invasion of an unprotected Finnish port followed by debark next turn can make the situation worse than just a single DIV in the back
- does USSR have ships with invasion forces in the Baltic already. When not active and with combined impulses only 1 naval unit can move each turn, limiting the invasion threat - but if a few SCSs with DIVs are available then several landing sites are possible.
- are USSR active - in that case the entire fleet can move on the invasion impulse
- is it winter - in that case the Lake is often frozen
- is the non-ZoC on surprise optional rules used - as with all minors, that would weaken the defense somewhat making invasions/paradrops/moving across the lake during winter easier (and especially the '39 setup needs to be modified)
- is Germany prepared to help, and are the German TRS/AMPH available - in that case perhaps a second unit in Viipuri (or maybe even any unit) is not necessary, as Germans can be debarked there during the following impulse (if port is not closed due to winter)

Also, maybe there are a couple of setup variants that are fairly equal in strength - than I think it would be a good idea to include them all and then have one selected random, so the USSR player won't know the setup with 100% certainty - that will provide him with to great an advantage, imho. So maybe 2-3 setups can be devised for each scenario - or is that to much work? After all, there are lots of minors to decide setup for, and lots of conditions for each setup. Otoh, it is fun to consider setups, and most players will give it a try, I think.

Yes.

I know that there are a lot of possibilites for setting up Finland, which is one of the reasons I like analyzing it now. As I said before, if we can work out the details for setting up Finland, then (1) the data structure for selecting and placing units, (2) how we handle optional rules, and (3) how we handle numerous other game conditions will be worked out.

I have two goals: get the AIO language defined so it is robust enough to accommodate all this stuff, and (2) decide how to set up Finland. They really go hand-in-hand.

Therefore,...

For each of the conditions you listed, what adjustments would you make to the Finnish setup?

I'd like to suggest that whenever possible the setup options should include (as one of several possibilities) "historical".

[brian brian]

[For Germany to rail through Sweden to Finland, it must already have a unit in Norway AND Finland, so the first German corps unit to land in Finland will have to come by TRS/AMPH or a div via SCS (barring extremely unlikely mid-war scenarios with longer range German ATR available). Just wanted to clear that up, wouldn't have a lot of impact on a Finnish set-up I would think - Finland should most likely have higher priorities than keeping the rail link to Sweden open; it would be useful for Germany but not completely essential either. One situation where that may not be true is if the USSR were to attack Finland shortly before Barbarossa was due to launch and the Germans would love to rail in to Finland, but that is another extremely unlikely situation.]


You might also want to think about 'offensive' Finnish set-ups for the start of Barbarossa...

With AMPH rules in play Helsinki is fairly safe. With a Finnish ZoC on it, the Russians can only get a 2:2 on it for a very low % +2 attack with only one unit on a surprise impulse that is the Russian's first move of the turn. On the 2nd impulse the USSR could add the Engineer division and go to 3:3 = +2 > +3 for notional, but with two units attacking there is a somewhat better chance of success, although still somewhere south of 25% I would think? But by the 2nd impulse there could be a German unit covering Helsinki anyway. So I'd rather cover more landing sites with ZoCs than use a unit in Helsinki. (unless Russia has PARAs or something).
Perhaps one + higher if the Russians moved out a Shore Bombardment ship before the DoW impulse, or with such a telegraph move or even 2 such they could raise the surprise attack all the way to 4.5:2 = +5.5 with 2 invading units and then you might want to cover Helsinki, IF the Russians made those advance naval moves.

So a setup variable could be the presence of loaded Russian SCS or an unloaded BB in the Baltic Sea prior to DoW.

[composer99]

What is the "historical" Finnish set-up for the Winter War? Could you re-create it given the scale of the land units?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

[For Germany to rail through Sweden to Finland, it must already have a unit in Norway AND Finland, so the first German corps unit to land in Finland will have to come by TRS/AMPH or a div via SCS (barring extremely unlikely mid-war scenarios with longer range German ATR available). Just wanted to clear that up, wouldn't have a lot of impact on a Finnish set-up I would think - Finland should most likely have higher priorities than keeping the rail link to Sweden open; it would be useful for Germany but not completely essential either. One situation where that may not be true is if the USSR were to attack Finland shortly before Barbarossa was due to launch and the Germans would love to rail in to Finland, but that is another extremely unlikely situation.]


You might also want to think about 'offensive' Finnish set-ups for the start of Barbarossa...

With AMPH rules in play Helsinki is fairly safe. With a Finnish ZoC on it, the Russians can only get a 2:2 on it for a very low % +2 attack with only one unit on a surprise impulse that is the Russian's first move of the turn. On the 2nd impulse the USSR could add the Engineer division and go to 3:3 = +2 > +3 for notional, but with two units attacking there is a somewhat better chance of success, although still somewhere south of 25% I would think? But by the 2nd impulse there could be a German unit covering Helsinki anyway. So I'd rather cover more landing sites with ZoCs than use a unit in Helsinki. (unless Russia has PARAs or something).
Perhaps one + higher if the Russians moved out a Shore Bombardment ship before the DoW impulse, or with such a telegraph move or even 2 such they could raise the surprise attack all the way to 4.5:2 = +5.5 with 2 invading units and then you might want to cover Helsinki, IF the Russians made those advance naval moves.

So a setup variable could be the presence of loaded Russian SCS or an unloaded BB in the Baltic Sea prior to DoW.

Perhaps I could translate a bunch of these 'ifs' into what the best attack odds are for the USSR invading/paradropping into Helsinki?

That could take into consideration shore bombardment, ground support, and even the possiblity of using a full INF army from a TRS if not playing with AMPHs.

Let's assume the AIO can work out the best attack the USSR can make in the first impulse after its DOW. At what level of odds should the Finns put a real unit into Helsinki, instead of just a ZOC?

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Perhaps I could translate a bunch of these 'ifs' into what the best attack odds are for the USSR invading/paradropping into Helsinki?

That could take into consideration shore bombardment, ground support, and even the possiblity of using a full INF army from a TRS if not playing with AMPHs.

Let's assume the AIO can work out the best attack the USSR can make in the first impulse after its DOW. At what level of odds should the Finns put a real unit into Helsinki, instead of just a ZOC?

There is no disaster if USSR succeds with landing a division in Helsinki. If the weather is fine most (all?) of the Finnish army is in supply and could make a nice counterattack on Helsinki. If that attack succeds it may even be the end of the war. What the AI must look for is if USSR can ATR in more divisions and if USSR can invade with a corps. If it is likely that the turn might end after the suprise it might be prudent to start with a unit in Helsinki.

With that said I would say that the odds for USSR to get a faceup division or more in Helsinki should never be allowed to be more than 20%.

[brian brian]

It could be bad though...if the USSR is moving second - the turn could end, the weather could change. The Russians could have WiF super-ART across the way in Estonia ready to double the strength of that division regardless of air combat, or simply surplus air assets to commit. If that happens with the 2-3 Russian INF, the remaining Finns might have only a low-odds counterattack, and some of them might have been disrupted on surprise by Russian bombers.

I've never thought of an exact lower probability limit to give the other player, I play more seat-of-the-pants (hotseat?). I don't think very many Russian players would throw their Engineer division into a 20% attack though; and they could have a 1 point regular Inf div as well, I forgot about breakdown-on-setup, but the Engineer cancels the -1 for city on the 2d10. But maybe 20% would be a good number to pick. It is can be fun to let the the other player take high-risk attacks.

[npilgaard]

ORIGINAL: brian brian
For Germany to rail through Sweden to Finland, it must already have a unit in Norway AND Finland,

You are right - had forgotten about that.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Therefore,...

For each of the conditions you listed, what adjustments would you make to the Finnish setup?

That is a task [:)]

Haven't done all the combinations, but at least here is a start (It became somewhat complex to keep track of all the different variables, so there probably are some 'errors'):


First, a few 'definitons' regarding the general level of invasion risk:

"RoPI": Risk of Primary Invasion/paradrop in case of:

• - ATR and PARA corps within range of Helsinki
  OR
• If NOT OptRule.AmphibiousRules:
  • if TRS w corps in Baltic 3(if fine weather) or 4 box, or in Leningrad
• If OptRule.AmphibiousRules:
  • - if AMPH w corps in Baltic (3) or 4 box, or in Leningrad
    OR
  • - if TRS w MAR corps in Baltic (3) or 4 box, or in Leningrad

"RoI": Risk of Invasions in case of:

• IF OptRule.Divisions:
  • - if TRS and/or SCS(s) w DIV(s) in Baltic (3) or 4 box or in Leningrad
  OR
• - RoPI

Also, regarding expected German support:

"GSI": German Support Immidiately - 1-2 corps will arrive by TRS/AMPH next impulse



Additional optional rules:
"no-ZoC": no ZoC on surprise



Proposals for 1939 setup (the least complex one) - partly done:


1) RoI:
as proposed

2) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and GSI and lake not frozen and no fast USSR units north of lake:
as proposed except:
1 INF (6-3) wp, forest hex east of Viipuri
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

3) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and GSI and not winter and fast USSR units north of lake:
as proposed except:
1 INF (6-3) wp, Viipuri
1 HQI,(35,50) Swamp hex
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

4) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and GSI and winter:
as 3) except:
1 INF (5-4), Viipuri

5) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and no GSI:
as proposed except:
1 INF (5-4), clear hex west of Viipuri
1 HQI Helsinki

6) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and GSI and lake not frozen and no fast USSR units north of lake:
as 2) except:
1 DIV (2-4), forest hex east of Viipuri
1 INF (6-3) wp, forest hex north east of Viipuri

7) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and GSI and fast USSR units north of lake and not winter:
as proposed except:
1 DIV (2-4), Viipuri
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

8) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and GSI and winter:
as proposed except:
1 DIV (2-4), Viipuri
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

9) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and no GSI:
as 5) and:
1 DIV (2-4), clear hex west of Viipuri

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: npilgaard

ORIGINAL: brian brian
For Germany to rail through Sweden to Finland, it must already have a unit in Norway AND Finland,

You are right - had forgotten about that.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Therefore,...

For each of the conditions you listed, what adjustments would you make to the Finnish setup?

That is a task [:)]

Haven't done all the combinations, but at least here is a start (It became somewhat complex to keep track of all the different variables, so there probably are some 'errors'):


First, a few 'definitons' regarding the general level of invasion risk:

"RoPI": Risk of Primary Invasion/paradrop in case of:

• - ATR and PARA corps within range of Helsinki
  OR
• If NOT OptRule.AmphibiousRules:
  • if TRS w corps in Baltic 3(if fine weather) or 4 box, or in Leningrad
• If OptRule.AmphibiousRules:
  • - if AMPH w corps in Baltic (3) or 4 box, or in Leningrad
    OR
  • - if TRS w MAR corps in Baltic (3) or 4 box, or in Leningrad

"RoI": Risk of Invasions in case of:

• IF OptRule.Divisions:
  • - if TRS and/or SCS(s) w DIV(s) in Baltic (3) or 4 box or in Leningrad
  OR
• - RoPI

Also, regarding expected German support:

"GSI": German Support Immidiately - 1-2 corps will arrive by TRS/AMPH next impulse



Additional optional rules:
"no-ZoC": no ZoC on surprise



Proposals for 1939 setup (the least complex one) - partly done:


1) RoI:
as proposed

2) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and GSI and lake not frozen and no fast USSR units north of lake:
as proposed except:
1 INF (6-3) wp, forest hex east of Viipuri
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

3) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and GSI and not winter and fast USSR units north of lake:
as proposed except:
1 INF (6-3) wp, Viipuri
1 HQI,(35,50) Swamp hex
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

4) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and GSI and winter:
as 3) except:
1 INF (5-4), Viipuri

5) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and no GSI:
as proposed except:
1 INF (5-4), clear hex west of Viipuri
1 HQI Helsinki

6) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and GSI and lake not frozen and no fast USSR units north of lake:
as 2) except:
1 DIV (2-4), forest hex east of Viipuri
1 INF (6-3) wp, forest hex north east of Viipuri

7) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and GSI and fast USSR units north of lake and not winter:
as proposed except:
1 DIV (2-4), Viipuri
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

8) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and GSI and winter:
as proposed except:
1 DIV (2-4), Viipuri
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

9) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and no GSI:
as 5) and:
1 DIV (2-4), clear hex west of Viipuri

Oooo, I love it! [&o]

Here is something to make life easier - the AIO will not play use the optional rule No-ZOC. So you can eliminate all those conditionals. ZOC will always be in place. Want to revise your pseudo code trimming out those conditionals?

[brian brian]

[ you could trim out the 'box' references for the most part...the TRS could only be in the three box I would think; just check if it is in the 3 box or face-up in port ]

[npilgaard]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Oooo, I love it! [&o]

Thanks [:)]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Here is something to make life easier - the AIO will not play use the optional rule No-ZOC. So you can eliminate all those conditionals. ZOC will always be in place. Want to revise your pseudo code trimming out those conditionals?

Lol - since that was the single most important rule regarding the finnish setup pretty much all of the above was under assumption of that rule [:)]
A wise choice to exclude it from the AIO-code though - it will lead to to much extra work for only a very small benefit.

ORIGINAL: brian brian
you could trim out the 'box' references for the most part...the TRS could only be in the three box I would think; just check if it is in the 3 box or face-up in port

You are right - just checked and the USSR doesn't get a TRS or AMPH with 5 move until '42 or so - and I have yet to see USSR build AMPH [:)]

[npilgaard]

Take two of Finnish setup under various conditions:

If nothing else noted, all unit requirements must be face up units.
Also, all Finnish units must be placed in supply (except maybe Vaasa)

On second thought I have kept the check for TRS/AMPH in 4-box to allow the 'code' to handle all cases (incl. new units in future expansions, late war units, etc. - it will probably be easy to code when checking for the 3-box anyway)


"RoPI": Risk of Primary Invasion/paradrop in case of:

• if weather permits air missions (i.e. not storm)
  • - ATR within range of Helsinki and PARA corps within movement range of ATR
  OR
• if weather permits invasions (i.e. not winter, storm, blizzard iirc):
  • If NOT OptRule.AmphibiousRules:
    • if TRS or AMPH w corps in Baltic 3 (in fine weather) or 4-box, or capable of reaching such box in one move (i.e. in non-iced Baltic Port) with INF class corps positioned so it can embark
  • If OptRule.AmphibiousRules:
    • - if AMPH w corps in Baltic 3 (in fine weather) or 4-box, or capable of reaching such box in one move with INF class corps positioned so it can embark
      OR
    • - if TRS w MAR corps in in Baltic 3 (in fine weather) or 4-box, or capable of reaching such box in one move with MAR corps positioned so it can embark

"RoI": Risk of Invasion/paradrop in case of:

• if weather permits air missions (i.e. not storm)
  • - ATR within range of Helsinki and PARA DIV within movement range of ATR
  OR
• if weather permits invasions (i.e. not winter, storm, blizzard iirc):
  • IF OptRule.Divisions:
    • - if TRS, AMPH and/or SCS(s) w non-motorised INF class DIV(s) in Baltic 3 (in fine weather) or 4-box, OR capable of reaching such box in one move with DIV(s) positioned so it can embark
    OR
  • - RoPI

Regarding USSR attack strength:

"PA" : Poor attack odds (specific values yet to be decided) - calculated by AIO: potential chance of taking hex, including ground strike capability, terrain, weather, potential attacking factors, blit capabilities etc.


Also, regarding expected German support:

"GSI": German Support Immidiately - 1-2 corps will arrive by TRS/AMPH next impulse
"GS": German Support Likely - 1-2 corps will arrive by TRS/AMPH during this turn (GS includes GSI)


Proposals for 1939 setup:

• IF RoI (and thus OptRule.Divisions)
  • IF only 1 DIV able to do potential invasion/paradrop on Helsinki
    • As proposed, with 1 INF DIV in Helsinki
      OR
    • As proposed
  • IF 2+ DIVs able to do potential invasion/paradrop on Helsinki
    • As proposed, except:
      1 INF (5-4),Helsinki
      1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Turku
      OR (a bit more risky):
    • As proposed, with 1 INF DIV in Helsinki
• IF RoMI
  • As proposed, except:
    1 INF (5-4),Helsinki
    IF OptRule.Divisions: 1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Turku
    OR (somewhat more risky):
  • As proposed, with 1 INF DIV in Helsinki
• IF NOT RoI AND NOT RoMI
  • As proposed, except:
    1 INF (5-4),Helsinki
    IF OptRule.Divisions: 1 INF DIV: placed within movement range of the hexes W and NW of Viipuri OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo
    
    OR
  • IF [ lake not frozen (and no significant risk of it being frozen in the following impulses) ] AND [(PA on hex E of Viipuri (especially if risk of being flipped by ground strike is low) ) AND no USSR unit within movement range of the hex NE of Viipurti) OR GSI ]
    • As proposed, except:
      1 INF (5-4), forest hex E of Viipuri
      1 INF (6-3) wp, forest hex E of Viipuri
      1 HQI, (36,49) Viipuri
      1 TAC, (36,48) Forest hex NE of Helsinki (or other hexe within range of the Finnish units and Leningrad)
      IF OptRule.Divisions 1 INF DIV, forest hex E of Viipuri OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo
      OR (maybe with somewhat lower probability):
    • As proposed, except
      1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

Proposals for 1940 setup:

• IF lake not frozen (and no significant risk of it being frozen in the following impulses)) AND NOT 2+ (or 1+ if less risk) USSR units within movement range of the hex NE of Viipurti:
  • IF RoI (and thus OptRule.Divisions)
    • IF only 1 DIV able to do potential invasion/paradrop on Helsinki
      • As proposed, with 1 INF DIV in Helsinki
        OR
      • As proposed
    • IF 2+ DIVs able to do potential invasion/paradrop on Helsinki
      • As proposed, except:
        1 INF (5-4),Helsinki
        1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Turku
        OR (a bit more risky):
      • As proposed, with 1 INF DIV in Helsinki
        OR (a bit more risky):
      • 1939 setup as proposed, except:
        (1 INF (5-4),Helsinki; 1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Turku) OR (1 INF (5-4),as proposed; 1 INF DIV, Helsinki)
        1 MOT, Forest hex within movement range of clear hex W of Viipuri
        1 FTR, Forest hex W of swamp NW of Viipuri
  • IF RoMI
    
    Similar to "IF 2+ DIVs able to do potential invasion/paradrop on Helsinki" above, except higher probability for chosing the modified 1939-aetup
  • IF NOT RoI AND NOT RoMI
    • As proposed, except:
      1 INF (5-4), forest hex NE of Viipuri
      1 TAC, Forest hex within range of Viipuri and Leningrad
      IF OptRule.Divisions: 1 INF DIV: Forest hex E of Viipuri OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo
• IF lake frozen (or significant risk of it being frozen in the following impulses))
  
  Similar to 1939 setup incl. all conditionals above (i.e. setup dependent on RoI etc.), except:
  1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
  1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki
• IF 2+ (or 1+ if less risk (*) ) USSR units within movement range of the hex NE of Viipurti AND lake not frozen:
  
  • IF RoI OR RoMI:
    Similar to 1939 setup incl. all conditionals above (i.e. setup dependent on RoI etc.), except:
    1 MOT, within movement range of clear hex W of Viipuri (place so adding ZoC to unprotected coastal hexes if possible)
    1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki
  • IF NOT RiI AND NOT RoMI:
    • IF GS:
      As proposed OR as if no GS (but less probability for chosing that setup)
    • IF NO GS:
      Similar to 1939 setup as proposed, except:
      1 INF (5-4),Helsinki
      1 MOT, Empty hex (Forest if possible) within movement range of clear hex W of Viipuri
      1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki
      IF OptRule.Divisions: 1 INF DIV: Empty hex (Forest if possible) within movement range of clear hex W of Viipuri OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo

(*) especially if the unit is a corps and USSR can blitz attack the hex NW of Leningrad - then the ZoC can prevent any retreat


That is all for now - maybe '41 and '42 will be added later [:)]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Nikolaj,

Much thanks.

Now I'll see how to 'script' that using LAIO (Language for the AI Opponenet) we've created for MWIF.

EDIT: DId you take into consideration that the USSR is likely to have ski units that could ignore ZOCs?

[npilgaard]

Hmm - had forgotten about the ski divs - that will probably require some adjustments of the above.

Is there a thread where the LAIO is described? (perhaps that would allow for a more useful structure)

[npilgaard]

Adjustments to Finland setup - ski divs:

One extra conditional (is that the right word?) added: ski divs during winter (and thus OptRule.Divisions)


1939:

• IF (snow OR blizzard) AND (USSR SKI DIV near Finnish Borderlands):
  • IF potential para drop by corps on Helsinki (i.e. ATR+PARA in range, not blizzard etc):
    • As proposed, except:
      1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
      1 INF DIV, Helsinki
  • IF no risk of para on Helsinki:
    • As proposed, except:
      1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
      1 INF DIV, swamp hex NW of Viipuri OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo

1940:

• IF (snow OR blizzard) AND (USSR SKI DIV near Finnish Borderlands):
  • IF potential para drop by corps on Helsinki (i.e. ATR+PARA in range, not blizzard etc):
    • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
      1 HQ-INF, Helsinki
      1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
      1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
      1 INF DIV, Petsamo
      1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki
      
      OR (if 2+ USSR corps near Petsamo and it is important to protect it):
    • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
      1 HQ-INF, Helsinki
      1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
      1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
      1 INF DIV, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
      1 INF (6-3) w, Petsamo
      1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki
  • IF no risk of para on Helsinki:
    • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
      1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
      1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
      1 INF DIV, Petsamo
      1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki
      
      OR (if 2+ USSR corps near Petsamo and it is important to protect it):
    • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
      1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
      1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
      1 INF DIV, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
      1 INF (6-3) w, Petsamo
      1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: npilgaard

Adjustments to Finland setup - ski divs:

One extra conditional (is that the right word?) added: ski divs during winter (and thus OptRule.Divisions)


1939:

• IF (snow OR blizzard) AND (USSR SKI DIV near Finnish Borderlands):
  • IF potential para drop by corps on Helsinki (i.e. ATR+PARA in range, not blizzard etc):
    • As proposed, except:
      1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
      1 INF DIV, Helsinki
  • IF no risk of para on Helsinki:
    • As proposed, except:
      1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
      1 INF DIV, swamp hex NW of Viipuri OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo

1940:

• IF (snow OR blizzard) AND (USSR SKI DIV near Finnish Borderlands):
  • IF potential para drop by corps on Helsinki (i.e. ATR+PARA in range, not blizzard etc):
    • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
      1 HQ-INF, Helsinki
      1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
      1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
      1 INF DIV, Petsamo
      1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki
      
      OR (if 2+ USSR corps near Petsamo and it is important to protect it):
    • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
      1 HQ-INF, Helsinki
      1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
      1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
      1 INF DIV, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
      1 INF (6-3) w, Petsamo
      1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki
  • IF no risk of para on Helsinki:
    • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
      1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
      1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
      1 INF DIV, Petsamo
      1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki
      
      OR (if 2+ USSR corps near Petsamo and it is important to protect it):
    • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
      1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
      1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
      1 INF DIV, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
      1 INF (6-3) w, Petsamo
      1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki

Peter and I are hammering out the details of the language (LAIO). One of the reasons for discussing this topic here is to see what language constructs we need that we haven't defined yet.

Your presentation of the logic is elegant - I hope LAIO is as easy to read.