Rundstedt's Plan Martin (graphics heavy)

[Industrial]

There don't seem to be too many red dots left in the middle of the bulge, this doesn't look good for the germans [;)]

[Terminus]

Yeah well, that's what's bound to happen when all the SS goes away. The longest penetration to the west were done by an ad-hoc corps group comprising units of 3rd FJD, LAH and HJ. Strangely enough, when the two latter divisions teleported away, a single parachute division had some trouble holding out against a whole mechanised corps. Who'da thunk it?[:D]

[Captain Cruft]

Since I am nice the afore-mentioned Canadians will not move beyond the Meuse river. They get withdrawn soon anyway I believe.

[Terminus]

Thank you, kind Sir![&o] Now I'll only lose BIG, instead of Catastrophically...[;)]

[Captain Cruft]

Game abandoned due to 6th Pz Army withdrawal scenario error

Sorry folks but we have decided to call it a day on this one.

Upon examination, the withdrawal event for the 6th Pz Army removes the wrong set of units from the map. It's not just a question of a couple of divisions either. Every single SS unit gets removed (as reported here), whereas it should just be those in I and II SS Pz Korps, while 8 VG divisions remain which shouldn't. The problem is caused by colouring the German units by type rather than by formation hierarchy.

This basically makes the German side unplayable from this point on. Plus, I have no desire to crush the now erroneous and inadequate German army into pulp either.

Still, it's a been a very enjoyable game and I have learnt a lot [:)]

[Terminus]

A disappointing end to a fun game. Thanks for a good fight, Cruft.[&o]

[Industrial]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Game abandoned due to 6th Pz Army withdrawal scenario error

Sorry folks but we have decided to call it a day on this one.

Upon examination, the withdrawal event for the 6th Pz Army removes the wrong set of units from the map. It's not just a question of a couple of divisions either. Every single SS unit gets removed (as reported here), whereas it should just be those in I and II SS Pz Korps, while 8 VG divisions remain which shouldn't. The problem is caused by colouring the German units by type rather than by formation hierarchy.

This basically makes the German side unplayable from this point on. Plus, I have no desire to crush the now erroneous and inadequate German army into pulp either.

Still, it's a been a very enjoyable game and I have learnt a lot [:)]

Uh, Bug? What bug?

The briefing clearly states that the 6th SS Panzer Army + I and II SS Panzer Corps are withdrawn.

Lets take a look at what's really in this Army, m'kay? [8D]

6th Panzer Army includes LXVII Armee Korps, LXVI Armee Korps, Korps Felber, I.SS Panzerkorps and II.SS Panzerkorps.

6.SS Panzerarmee:
Volks-Artillerie-Korps 388/402/405
Volks-Werfer-Brigade 4/9/17
2 Flak Division
246 Volks-Grenadier Division

LXVII Armee Korps:
272 Volks-Grenadier Division
326 Volks-Grenadier Division

LXVI Armee Korps:
12 Volks-Grenadier Division
62 Volks-Grenadier Division
560 Volks-Grenadier Division

Korps Felber:
18 Volks-Grenadier Division
62 Volks-Grenadier Division

I.SS Panzerkorps:
1.SS-Panzer-Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler
12.SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend
3.Fallschirmjäger-Division
12.Volksgrenadier-Division
277.Infanterie-Division

II.SS Panzerkorps:
9.SS-Panzer-Division Hohenstaufen
10.SS-Panzer-Division Frundsberg

I mean, come on, are you really surprised that your front all of a sudden lacks some units? [;)]
And I don't even think that all of these formations are withdrawn, otherwise there would indeed be not that much left [:D]

Just as the briefing says:

Note: many sub units in 6th Panzer Army, and in the I & II SS Panzer Korps formations are rendered in SS colours although historically they were not SS units per se. This is done purely to facilitate the historical withdrawal of 6th Pz Army and many of its sub-units

So, you should indeed expect every black colored unit to go poooof once the 6th S Panzer Army starts to withdraw [8|]

[Terminus]

Just one thing. I didn't ask Cruft to end the game, he suggested it and I agreed, because the fun was out of it for both of us.

[Captain Cruft]

Please examine what actually happens in your game when you get to that point.

The incorrect set of units is withdrawn, and the SS colouring of non-SS units to facilitate withdrawal has either not been done or is incomplete. Many SS corps level assets and VG/Luftwaffe divisions remain as orphans (since they are not black on grey), and the two SS divisions (PzG and Geb) attached to 7th Army and the one in the Roermond salient get withdrawn incorrectly.

It does spoil the game, we wouldn't have abandoned it otherwise.

BTW I didn't call it a bug, since it is not code-related. "Scenario error" was what I said.

[Industrial]

Sure, no problem, I just wante'd to point out that these withdrawals were intended, and are no bug.
The decision when and why to abandon a game belongs entirely to you, I've abandoned quite a few DNO games myself because I simply failed to beat the soviets decisively enough, and got bogged down in static trench-warfare, with no real option to go back to mobile warfare again

[Terminus]

Unfortunate though it is, this might have been the best possible time to stop this game. I just got let into the beta forum for Forge of Freedom, so I'll have plenty to do there.

[Captain Cruft]

Well good luck matey! No idea what Forge of Freedom is mind you ... [;)]

Thinking about it, I suppose this thing might not be an error, and in fact acting as designed, whilst contradicting the docs if you look at it strictly. Hard to know really ...

To my mind, what it shows up more than anything else is the lack of a hierarchical OOB in the game.

[Terminus]

Forge of Freedom is the new American Civil War game that's being developed.

[Industrial]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Please examine what actually happens in your game when you get to that point.

The incorrect set of units is withdrawn, and the SS colouring of non-SS units to facilitate withdrawal has either not been done or is incomplete. Many SS corps level assets and VG/Luftwaffe divisions remain as orphans (since they are not black on grey), and the two SS divisions (PzG and Geb) attached to 7th Army and the one in the Roermond salient get withdrawn incorrectly.

It does spoil the game, we wouldn't have abandoned it otherwise.

BTW I didn't call it a bug, since it is not code-related. "Scenario error" was what I said.

It is no scenario error, it is intended.
Army's are withdrawn by color, that's why Daniel McBride colored all units that were supposed to be withdrawn in the same color.
Just check the divisions I posted, all actually withdrawn units were part of the 6th SS Panzer Army! (yes, including 'Das Reich' which wasn't part of the historical Battle of the Bulge, but is part during this maximum effort scenario, as it was attached to II SS Panzer Korps in 1945)

And I hotseated to turn 44 in CoW, there, too, all black 'SS' Units are withdrawn.

"the two SS divisions (PzG and Geb) attached to 7th Army and the one in the Roermond salient get withdrawn incorrectly"

About the 6th SS Gebirgs Divisions, let me quote from the briefing:

6th SS Gebirg (mountain) division, 7th FJ (para-inf), & 257th VGD are likewise withdrawn from the Vosges front, rebuilt, and sent into the Ardennes as Army reserves: 6th SS mountain assigned to 6th Panzer Army, 257th VGD to 5th Panzer Army, and 7th FJ Div to Brandenberg’s 7thth Army reserve in the south...

So 6th SS Gebirgs Division was part of the 6th Panzer Army.

The SS Division in the Roermond salient is the 10.SS-Panzer-Division Frundsberg, which is part of II SS Panzer Korps, which is part of 6th SS Panzer Army

And finally the 17th Panzer Grenadier Division Götz von Berlichingen:

17th SS & 25th Panzergrenadier division are largely built up to strength after the defensive battles in the Lorraine: 17th SS Panzer is added to 6th Panzer Army reserve; 25th Panzergrenadier is assigned to the HG Korps.

So yes, the 17th is also part of 6th Panzer Army

There seem to be no mistakes made by the scenario designer.

[Captain Cruft]

OK so it's not an error [:)] I still don't like the lack of a hierarchical OOB, which you really need for a big scen like this.

This particular game seemed rather pointless after the SS departure anyway ...

[Industrial]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

OK so it's not an error [:)] I still don't like the lack of a hierarchical OOB, which you really need for a big scen like this.

This particular game seemed rather pointless after the SS departure anyway ...

Hehe, well, the point is, that this is a hypothetical and no historical scenario, because with an historical OOB many of the divisions the germans start with in this game wouldn't even be on the map in the first place

and while the germans will, be in a pretty tricky situation if they fail to get the 100 EEV necessary to keep the 6th Panzer army in the game, you shouldn't forget that the allies will also lose some divisions, like the 2nd canadians corps the XXX british corps (unless the germans managed to push the EEV above 80).

I thik in the end both sides will lose about the same in divisions from these withdrawals, which should balance thinks out again (I hope, my game is still going slooow, but I'll see it for myself sooner or later [;)])

[sPzAbt653]

Based on my experience with this scenario, and the views posted here (starting at post #45) I changed the withdrawal of 6th Panzer Army to be player optional. If anyone is interested, you can e-mail me and I can send it to you. I didn't playtest it, as I am more obsessed with making a solataire playable version, and am spending my time on that.