Decisive CV battle late 43 ideas for Japs ?

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I am in late '43 as Japan, and been trolling for ideas for months. I am in the same boat, except he is down 6 CV, 5 CVE, and I am down 3 CV, 1 CVL.

I have seen/been given advice around the following:

1. Fight within range of your LBA. Do not fight within range of HIS LBA. As Japan, you should be able to get "Home Court Advantage" in '43.
2. Speed is not as important as it is early in war. As such, you can: A) Mix in at least 1 BB in every CV TF to soak attacks. Use the old 14in BBs if you like. B) Use the CVE's; load each with a TB Daitai or Zeke Daitai.
3. Split CV's into multiple TF's, mix in BB's, etc.
4. Set CAP to no more than 50%; you need the escorts to punch through his CAP.
5. Accept that you will suffer enormous pilot losses, and will lose ships in the exchange.

If you have every CV, and you have accelerated everything, that is ALOT of aircraft you can put up, I would estimate 1000 to 1100 aircraft. Even at 50% CAP, you would still have maybe 200 Zekes on CAP.

Back on topic.

I've put some thought into this, the main thing is that you need to save your LBA for the raid, and definately make the allies fight on your terms.

The one thing no one has mentioned is setting up a wolf-pack to attack the allied CVs on there way to where you want to fight. An effective sub screen 6-10 hexes from your desired battlespace on the most likely path of the allied strike force might be beneficial. one or two successful sub strikes can really ruin the coordination (and if they hit right even sink a ship or two) of the allied force. Slowing down 1 carrier just a bit would put the odds less in the allies favor, as there wouldn't be as large an uber cap over the main fleet.

Just some random thoughts on the matter.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: herwin

If you attacked Pearl, it's basically down-hill from here. Have fun.

If you didn't, a good hard punch in the nose at this point would have brought America to the conference table.

Seems every opponent the US has ever had has said a good stinging defeat will make America surrender...it's never happened.

Read your American history carefully. I said nothing about a surrender--I was discussing the conditions under which America might have been willing to talk with Japan. I was also assuming Hitler would have made the mistake he made historically. Suppose there had been no surprise attack on Hawaii, Japan had taken a defensive stance against the Pacific Fleet, and there had been a major reverse at the beginning of War Plan Orange offensive. At a minimum, Washington would have gone on the strategic defensive in the Pacific to concentrate on Germany, and it is quite possible the Pacific War would have come to a close with Japan being allowed to keep a few of its goals while returning the American and possibly British possessions. Remember, the Western Allies were happy to give Eastern Europe to the Soviets in return for staying in the war against Germany. Why not give the NEI to Japan in return for cobelligerancy against Germany? Italy switched sides on a similar basis.

Nawh...not a chance. The war was just as much racial as political or territorial-especially after Pearl Harbor. I don't think there is anyway that Americans would have accepted anything but victory. Maybe a short term truce but eventually the war would have continued and the American economy would have prevailed. Any sort of Japanese position of strength in Asia would have been unacceptable for a variety of reasons.

But....we have hijacked this thread. Sorry.

Late 1943, I don't think KB can win given that both sides have all their carriers. The moment has passed. You should have picked the fight a lot earlier. No amount of tactical acumen will make up for the hellcats and helldivers. Not to mention, the massive AA values of the Allied ships.

Oh you might pick off a few Allied carriers but it will cost you all your top pilots and most of your carriers. It is a fight that the Americans should be spoiling for.

[castor troy]

Honda wiped out Ravers carriers in late?? 43...

[okami]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Late 1943, I don't think KB can win given that both sides have all their carriers. The moment has passed. You should have picked the fight a lot earlier. No amount of tactical acumen will make up for the hellcats and helldivers. Not to mention, the massive AA values of the Allied ships.

Oh you might pick off a few Allied carriers but it will cost you all your top pilots and most of your carriers. It is a fight that the Americans should be spoiling for.

Actually it is also a fight that the Japanese should be spoiling for. Victory is a relative term. In Witp it can mean many things. After mid 43 as the Japanese player you are going to lose all of your navy at some point or leave them in port which is the same thing. Getting something for your assets is victory. Doing better than historical is the gauge. If you can sink more than was sunk and if you can slow down the allied advance then you can claim a small victory in the hard times ahead. It is all about attitude. We Japanese players know we are going to lose(short of playing gamey) the idea is to lose hard and die well. In so doing lies the only victory that is possible.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: okami

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Late 1943, I don't think KB can win given that both sides have all their carriers. The moment has passed. You should have picked the fight a lot earlier. No amount of tactical acumen will make up for the hellcats and helldivers. Not to mention, the massive AA values of the Allied ships.

Oh you might pick off a few Allied carriers but it will cost you all your top pilots and most of your carriers. It is a fight that the Americans should be spoiling for.

Actually it is also a fight that the Japanese should be spoiling for. Victory is a relative term. In Witp it can mean many things. After mid 43 as the Japanese player you are going to lose all of your navy at some point or leave them in port which is the same thing. Getting something for your assets is victory. Doing better than historical is the gauge. If you can sink more than was sunk and if you can slow down the allied advance then you can claim a small victory in the hard times ahead. It is all about attitude. We Japanese players know we are going to lose(short of playing gamey) the idea is to lose hard and die well. In so doing lies the only victory that is possible.

Well, I agree with your statement but my point is that the time to use and lose KB is in 1942 when you can really deal out some damage to the Allies. By 1943 with all things equal in ships and such, a big carrier fight is going to be soundly won by the Allies.
Allied carriers are loaded with hellcats, allied dive bombers drop 1,000 pound eggs, and allies torps actually work a bit. Figure in the mass of alllied AA and better overall ship quality and KB starts to become a bit redundant.

You are going to get a whole lot less for your money if you wait.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I am in late '43 as Japan, and been trolling for ideas for months. I am in the same boat, except he is down 6 CV, 5 CVE, and I am down 3 CV, 1 CVL.

I have seen/been given advice around the following:

1. Fight within range of your LBA. Do not fight within range of HIS LBA. As Japan, you should be able to get "Home Court Advantage" in '43.
2. Speed is not as important as it is early in war. As such, you can: A) Mix in at least 1 BB in every CV TF to soak attacks. Use the old 14in BBs if you like. B) Use the CVE's; load each with a TB Daitai or Zeke Daitai.
3. Split CV's into multiple TF's, mix in BB's, etc.
4. Set CAP to no more than 50%; you need the escorts to punch through his CAP.
5. Accept that you will suffer enormous pilot losses, and will lose ships in the exchange.

If you have every CV, and you have accelerated everything, that is ALOT of aircraft you can put up, I would estimate 1000 to 1100 aircraft. Even at 50% CAP, you would still have maybe 200 Zekes on CAP.

Back on topic.

I've put some thought into this, the main thing is that you need to save your LBA for the raid, and definately make the allies fight on your terms.

The one thing no one has mentioned is setting up a wolf-pack to attack the allied CVs on there way to where you want to fight. An effective sub screen 6-10 hexes from your desired battlespace on the most likely path of the allied strike force might be beneficial. one or two successful sub strikes can really ruin the coordination (and if they hit right even sink a ship or two) of the allied force. Slowing down 1 carrier just a bit would put the odds less in the allies favor, as there wouldn't be as large an uber cap over the main fleet.

Just some random thoughts on the matter.

Subs are about ten times too vulnerable to ASW--my experience setting up sub screens is that the TF DDs eat them alive. In fact, it's unlikely you'll have any left in late 1943 if you use them aggressively.

[jerrylt2008]

Hey all,

Newbie here, but how about the allies hurting the KB by 12/16/1941. I did not take it out of service but i did damage 2 fleet carriers as they ran from PH. I was going for a surprise attack somewhere else and ran into them. Now I have to run from them, but I know alot of their DB and TB were damaged at PH. With this KB with 2 damaged CV plus alot of planes damaged, would you use a Surface TF to maybe get lucky while they are trying to escape?

[okami]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: okami

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Late 1943, I don't think KB can win given that both sides have all their carriers. The moment has passed. You should have picked the fight a lot earlier. No amount of tactical acumen will make up for the hellcats and helldivers. Not to mention, the massive AA values of the Allied ships.

Oh you might pick off a few Allied carriers but it will cost you all your top pilots and most of your carriers. It is a fight that the Americans should be spoiling for.

Actually it is also a fight that the Japanese should be spoiling for. Victory is a relative term. In Witp it can mean many things. After mid 43 as the Japanese player you are going to lose all of your navy at some point or leave them in port which is the same thing. Getting something for your assets is victory. Doing better than historical is the gauge. If you can sink more than was sunk and if you can slow down the allied advance then you can claim a small victory in the hard times ahead. It is all about attitude. We Japanese players know we are going to lose(short of playing gamey) the idea is to lose hard and die well. In so doing lies the only victory that is possible.

Well, I agree with your statement but my point is that the time to use and lose KB is in 1942 when you can really deal out some damage to the Allies. By 1943 with all things equal in ships and such, a big carrier fight is going to be soundly won by the Allies.
Allied carriers are loaded with hellcats, allied dive bombers drop 1,000 pound eggs, and allies torps actually work a bit. Figure in the mass of alllied AA and better overall ship quality and KB starts to become a bit redundant.

You are going to get a whole lot less for your money if you wait.

I agree with your assessment but Sir Robin will usually mean that you can not get at carriers sitting on the West Coast in 42. In one of my games my opponent came out to fight in October of 43 I lost 600 planes for 1 CV and 3 CVE's sunk and 2 CV's damaged. I sustained no hits on my fleet. I have not recovered from the pilot loses, but his carriers have not come out to play since and we are in December so I gained two months of breathing space.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: okami

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Late 1943, I don't think KB can win given that both sides have all their carriers. The moment has passed. You should have picked the fight a lot earlier. No amount of tactical acumen will make up for the hellcats and helldivers. Not to mention, the massive AA values of the Allied ships.

Oh you might pick off a few Allied carriers but it will cost you all your top pilots and most of your carriers. It is a fight that the Americans should be spoiling for.

Actually it is also a fight that the Japanese should be spoiling for. Victory is a relative term. In Witp it can mean many things. After mid 43 as the Japanese player you are going to lose all of your navy at some point or leave them in port which is the same thing. Getting something for your assets is victory. Doing better than historical is the gauge. If you can sink more than was sunk and if you can slow down the allied advance then you can claim a small victory in the hard times ahead. It is all about attitude. We Japanese players know we are going to lose(short of playing gamey) the idea is to lose hard and die well. In so doing lies the only victory that is possible.

Well, I agree with your statement but my point is that the time to use and lose KB is in 1942 when you can really deal out some damage to the Allies. By 1943 with all things equal in ships and such, a big carrier fight is going to be soundly won by the Allies.
Allied carriers are loaded with hellcats, allied dive bombers drop 1,000 pound eggs, and allies torps actually work a bit. Figure in the mass of alllied AA and better overall ship quality and KB starts to become a bit redundant.

You are going to get a whole lot less for your money if you wait.

I think a decisive battle in 43 is still a possible winning scenrio for Japan, done well and with a bit of luck - let's face it luck is a HUGE part of any carrier engagement.

[esteban]

ORIGINAL: okami

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Late 1943, I don't think KB can win given that both sides have all their carriers. The moment has passed. You should have picked the fight a lot earlier. No amount of tactical acumen will make up for the hellcats and helldivers. Not to mention, the massive AA values of the Allied ships.

Oh you might pick off a few Allied carriers but it will cost you all your top pilots and most of your carriers. It is a fight that the Americans should be spoiling for.

Actually it is also a fight that the Japanese should be spoiling for. Victory is a relative term. In Witp it can mean many things. After mid 43 as the Japanese player you are going to lose all of your navy at some point or leave them in port which is the same thing. Getting something for your assets is victory. Doing better than historical is the gauge. If you can sink more than was sunk and if you can slow down the allied advance then you can claim a small victory in the hard times ahead. It is all about attitude. We Japanese players know we are going to lose(short of playing gamey) the idea is to lose hard and die well. In so doing lies the only victory that is possible.

I am only getting into 1944 in my one PBEM game that has gone a long ways, but it seems to me that you should not be trying to trade a lot of your Japanese carriers for a few Allied carriers. One thing that I have noticed is that if one side keeps their carrier force in being it basically forces the other side to commit its own fleet carriers to make any significant advances. Once you lose your carriers your opponent has much more freedom of action to advance at will.

[Hornblower]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005



Seems every opponent the US has ever had has said a good stinging defeat will make America surrender...it's never happened.

Read your American history carefully. I said nothing about a surrender--I was discussing the conditions under which America might have been willing to talk with Japan. I was also assuming Hitler would have made the mistake he made historically. Suppose there had been no surprise attack on Hawaii, Japan had taken a defensive stance against the Pacific Fleet, and there had been a major reverse at the beginning of War Plan Orange offensive. At a minimum, Washington would have gone on the strategic defensive in the Pacific to concentrate on Germany, and it is quite possible the Pacific War would have come to a close with Japan being allowed to keep a few of its goals while returning the American and possibly British possessions. Remember, the Western Allies were happy to give Eastern Europe to the Soviets in return for staying in the war against Germany. Why not give the NEI to Japan in return for cobelligerancy against Germany? Italy switched sides on a similar basis.

Nawh...not a chance. The war was just as much racial as political or territorial-especially after Pearl Harbor. I don't think there is anyway that Americans would have accepted anything but victory. Maybe a short term truce but eventually the war would have continued and the American economy would have prevailed. Any sort of Japanese position of strength in Asia would have been unacceptable for a variety of reasons.

But....we have hijacked this thread. Sorry.

Late 1943, I don't think KB can win given that both sides have all their carriers. The moment has passed. You should have picked the fight a lot earlier. No amount of tactical acumen will make up for the hellcats and helldivers. Not to mention, the massive AA values of the Allied ships.

Oh you might pick off a few Allied carriers but it will cost you all your top pilots and most of your carriers. It is a fight that the Americans should be spoiling for.

I agree with crsutton on this point.. At this time of the war/game, this is an opportunity the USN is waiting for, namely to bring the KB to ground. You'd be better placed to sidestep TF-58 and hit the supply TF or invasion TF if there is one. Maybe, and just maybe if you can knock out there supply and deny them oil and AvGas- they would be vunerable to a hit... Hit the logistics, avoid the CV's...

[jeffs]

[/quote]

I am only getting into 1944 in my one PBEM game that has gone a long ways, but it seems to me that you should not be trying to trade a lot of your Japanese carriers for a few Allied carriers. One thing that I have noticed is that if one side keeps their carrier force in being it basically forces the other side to commit its own fleet carriers to make any significant advances. Once you lose your carriers your opponent has much more freedom of action to advance at will.


[/quote]

Great point... If the KB exists, it is damn hard for the allies to advance unless it is in a place where he can have tons of land based planes protecting his every move (NG, DEI).

It takes guts and prayers to put 2 marine divisions in transports when you know the KB can appear out of nowhere...

[Bogo Mil]

Another point is that the Allies have a quite limited replacement rate for Hellcats and USN pilots. This restricts their operations, not the lack of carriers. Thus losing 2 or 3 CVs won't have much impact on their abilities in '44 and '45.

You should try to attrit their navy fighter and pilot pools whereever possible. This is a much more efficient way to blunt the Aliies' most dangerous weapon. You should read PzB's AAR, he has done this very well.

[Historiker]

Keep your carriers and avoid a decicve battle.
He need to be always afraid of your carriers, while you still have the ability to punch hard. You may run raids into his supply lines or make surprise attacks on ports as long as you have your carriers.

in a pbem, I lost a Carrier to an enemy KB-raid into the area between new caledonia and NZ as it appeared suddenly and met a rebasing CV...

[Cavalry Corp]

Thanks for all the good ideas

The sub plan will not work as the subs die in droves near the allied KB - tried it already . I ost about 6 subs fior one missed shot at the wasp

Being in range of a strike from LBA ( I have loads of Betty units at 80+ exp ) is what I am aiming for as the allied CV seem unconcerned about my bases.


Michael

[Cavalry Corp]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Keep your carriers and avoid a decicve battle.
He need to be always afraid of your carriers, while you still have the ability to punch hard. You may run raids into his supply lines or make surprise attacks on ports as long as you have your carriers.

in a pbem, I lost a Carrier to an enemy KB-raid into the area between new caledonia and NZ as it appeared suddenly and met a rebasing CV...

Actually y KB has carred out several port style attacks , one against Columbo and one against Darwin ( which lost me 2BB ) BUT in all I sank about thirty allied ships including a BB , CA couple of CL. I am think about another raid betwen PH and the US or what about a second attack onPH ?

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: cavalry

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Keep your carriers and avoid a decicve battle.
He need to be always afraid of your carriers, while you still have the ability to punch hard. You may run raids into his supply lines or make surprise attacks on ports as long as you have your carriers.

in a pbem, I lost a Carrier to an enemy KB-raid into the area between new caledonia and NZ as it appeared suddenly and met a rebasing CV...

Actually y KB has carred out several port style attacks , one against Columbo and one against Darwin ( which lost me 2BB ) BUT in all I sank about thirty allied ships including a BB , CA couple of CL. I am think about another raid betwen PH and the US or what about a second attack onPH ?

Risky if your opponant has it properly defended. Also a good chance they won't have much in the way of shipping there, you need to recon it good first to see if it's even worth the risk.

[Cavalry Corp]

Oh yes I do my research first an actually the washingto had been hit by two ss torps nad was under repair at Darwin , this was in about June 43 - we are now in October

Michael

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Thanks for all the good ideas

The sub plan will not work as the subs die in droves near the allied KB - tried it already . I ost about 6 subs fior one missed shot at the wasp

Being in range of a strike from LBA ( I have loads of Betty units at 80+ exp ) is what I am aiming for as the allied CV seem unconcerned about my bases.


Michael

That sounds like a workable plan. Combine your assets and play up the Allies self-confidence. Allied CVs are not unbeatable in 43

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: cavalry

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Keep your carriers and avoid a decicve battle.
He need to be always afraid of your carriers, while you still have the ability to punch hard. You may run raids into his supply lines or make surprise attacks on ports as long as you have your carriers.

in a pbem, I lost a Carrier to an enemy KB-raid into the area between new caledonia and NZ as it appeared suddenly and met a rebasing CV...

Actually y KB has carred out several port style attacks , one against Columbo and one against Darwin ( which lost me 2BB ) BUT in all I sank about thirty allied ships including a BB , CA couple of CL. I am think about another raid betwen PH and the US or what about a second attack onPH ?

Unless you have particular intel that PH is weak I would definitely not try that. As you know allied fighter capabilities are much better than at the time of the original attack. Remember you'll be facing P-47s, P-38s and possibly Corsairs and Hellcats, not to mention B-24s and PBYs should detect you long before you get in range.