RHSRAO Campaign Data Point

[herwin]

See this report. The whole of the Malayan defence forces retreated to Singapore and hunkered down (fortification level is now 7). Even with no remaining supplies, they can handily fend off the Japanese forever. We've experimented and discovered that they can eject the besieging Japanese from Singapore basically at will. The situation in Luzon is similar, although counterattacks there are not as effective. Japan hasn't even moved against Java in June 1942. The Japanese fleet has moved to await the arrival of the US Fleet in the Western Pacific.

I have six good reinforced divisions in Manila attacking the whole of the Luzon forces and my last few attacks have been in the range of 1-12 to 1-15. Manila is unfortified--thank God--but I don't think I could get 1-1 odds against it with all the divisions in the Japanese Army!

[el cid again]

The bastion defense is a favorite in all forms of WITP - and I do recommend it to a degree - but I prefer not to let them near Manila or Singapore for many weeks- paying for bases they need - and eating supplies from as many local points as possible. Stored oil at both Singapore and Manila - combined with industry and recourses from the neighborhood make local production possible - and these are fine points from which to base air power. IF you rotate in high morale planes - you can hurt em badly as they approach the area.

These points will always fall - even to AI - if you only use the fundamental policy of "occupy and wait" - local production ceases - and units eat the stored supplies. When the hex turns black - it will die. I hate it - and did some things to mitigate it - but even heavy guns almost immune to destruction will die due to lack of supply.

I am not content to play the way AI does - so I use what I call "pressure" - combining land attacks and air attacks - and destroying the very things that generate supplies. I love it when the other side puts too many units there - they eat faster - and I love it more when he attacks - that consumes his supplies too. The trick is more an art than a science - combine bombing and ground assault - ALWAYS with high morale units - and LEAVE the hex if you have low morale or lots of disabled squads. It isn't the number of divisions that matters- three or four is enough - it is the condition they are in when you attack - compared to the condition of the enemy. Make the enemy weak - and since entering these hexes with battleships is a bad idea - use bombers.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The bastion defense is a favorite in all forms of WITP - and I do recommend it to a degree - but I prefer not to let them near Manila or Singapore for many weeks- paying for bases they need - and eating supplies from as many local points as possible. Stored oil at both Singapore and Manila - combined with industry and recourses from the neighborhood make local production possible - and these are fine points from which to base air power. IF you rotate in high morale planes - you can hurt em badly as they approach the area.

These points will always fall - even to AI - if you only use the fundamental policy of "occupy and wait" - local production ceases - and units eat the stored supplies. When the hex turns black - it will die. I hate it - and did some things to mitigate it - but even heavy guns almost immune to destruction will die due to lack of supply.

I am not content to play the way AI does - so I use what I call "pressure" - combining land attacks and air attacks - and destroying the very things that generate supplies. I love it when the other side puts too many units there - they eat faster - and I love it more when he attacks - that consumes his supplies too. The trick is more an art than a science - combine bombing and ground assault - ALWAYS with high morale units - and LEAVE the hex if you have low morale or lots of disabled squads. It isn't the number of divisions that matters- three or four is enough - it is the condition they are in when you attack - compared to the condition of the enemy. Make the enemy weak - and since entering these hexes with battleships is a bad idea - use bombers.

Perhaps, but Singapore had supplies in our game until the beginning of June. Manila still does. Singapore is also behind a water line so leaving the hex isn't a good option-in fact he can still eject the besiegers with a shock attack if he wants to.

[Nemo121]

Supply sinks are an elegant solution to a real problem. Unfortunately they cause more problems in terms of ahistoricity and challenges to suspension of disbelief/credulity than they have ever solved.

[el cid again]

Why do you think there is a problem with supply sinks at all? I am skeptical the behaviors result from them - and I suggest you just test without them and see that indeed the same things occur. Note that these places have MAJOR coast defense forts - forts which have internal supply sources - and forts which have many internal forts. These nuts are deliberately hard to crack. IF a supply sink was a problem - it would defeat you WITHOUT military units present - and uniformly this is not happening (although it once did before we modified the sinks).

In Luzon - consider Baguio City - which has NO supply sink at all. IF you move units and supplies there (move HQ and units and supplies tend to follow) - the defense is stronger than defending Manila.

And in the case of defending Manila - consider that it was the most destroyed city in Asia - bar none. Yet not a single division - nor even brigade - was defending it. A few thousand Japanese naval infantry in small units invested the old Spanish fortifications, Manila Hospital and a few other hard points - and it was a nightmare. Yet the entire city to the Pasig river was occupied before resistence was encountered - it was not the 36 units there that mattered - but their morale state, their supply state, and their fortification state.

In WITP you can defeat such strong points - every time - even AI can. You can do it the AI way (starve em out) or my way (combine starvation with bombing and ground assaults to speed the eating of supplies). My way is faster - thats all.

Note that if a location with a sink is abandoned (see Kuala Lumpur) it falls in a few days (3 or 4) - even if backed up as at KL by a single static non sink combat unit. The enemy that runs to Bataan instaead of Manila is very hard to eject too - it has forts of its own - and jungle - but no sinks.

As for being ejected - I have seen it happen to a small force. I don't care - if I enter the city - I shut down production. If I feared ejection - I would schedule another unit to enter - so I keep production shut down. But even if I have to go back - shutting it down half the time matters big time. I don't think most players will even try it - and I think most who try will lost a lot faster: if you have a proper force supported by a HQ and armor in good morale shape - you should hurt him badly when he attacks. If you are supporting your troops with air strikes, he won't be in very good shape either.

[el cid again]

Note that units being ejected from a hex are NEVER ejected by a pure supply sink such as is present at Singapore or Manila. [Hong Kong is different - it has a supply sink INSIDE a regular unit - but it is big - and a tiny enough enemy unit could be ejected by it] Only COMBAT units can "eject" enemy forces - and only if they have good supply, good morale, high weapons counts, and an enemy weak enough to obtain odds against.

Once upon a time a supply sink could shatter an attacker. No more. Unsupported supply sinks do not even demoralized attackers. However, SUPPORTED supply sinks - those in a hex with COMBAT units - DO contribute to hex defense - and tend to destroy some infrastructure the turn the hex falls (due to engineers present). It also is not perfectly efficient - as it degrades it will eat less supplies than it should - and so more of what supply is in the hex goes to the combat units than should (if they are present).

Strong teams of HQ, infantry, artillery and armor are powerful - even in hexes with no fortifications at all - and Scot was able to stop me cold in Malaya for many days - and still has me stopped cold North of Manila - halfway through January. But I did manage to take Lucena - putting me next to Manila from the South - and now I can go in and shut down its supply generation. The dozens of units in the pocket are hard to feed without it - but because he holds Clark uncontested - he still gets supplies.

[Bogo Mil]

It should really help to bomb the defenders using army planes.

In the real war, constant air attacks attrited the garrision of Singapore and forced them to surrender. I think this is doable in RHS, too.

I'm still not very familiar with the Japanese in RHS, but one thing I have seen in my RHS-MAIO game: Those army bombers are much more effective against ground troops than they were in CHS or stock (where the results often don't justify the op and AAA losses). Raids of 100-200 Sallys and Lilys are devastating - comparable to bombardment runs of a good BB task force. Soon most of the AAA guns will be out of action and the dive bombers can add to the slaughter.

[herwin]

We're playing in June, 1942, and many of the ship-based float-plane shotai, particularly the submarine units, have maximum strengths of 0 (zero). Is this deliberate?

Note that it does allow me to upgrade those units to their end-of-war plane types...

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Note that units being ejected from a hex are NEVER ejected by a pure supply sink such as is present at Singapore or Manila. [Hong Kong is different - it has a supply sink INSIDE a regular unit - but it is big - and a tiny enough enemy unit could be ejected by it] Only COMBAT units can "eject" enemy forces - and only if they have good supply, good morale, high weapons counts, and an enemy weak enough to obtain odds against.

Once upon a time a supply sink could shatter an attacker. No more. Unsupported supply sinks do not even demoralized attackers. However, SUPPORTED supply sinks - those in a hex with COMBAT units - DO contribute to hex defense - and tend to destroy some infrastructure the turn the hex falls (due to engineers present). It also is not perfectly efficient - as it degrades it will eat less supplies than it should - and so more of what supply is in the hex goes to the combat units than should (if they are present).

Strong teams of HQ, infantry, artillery and armor are powerful - even in hexes with no fortifications at all - and Scot was able to stop me cold in Malaya for many days - and still has me stopped cold North of Manila - halfway through January. But I did manage to take Lucena - putting me next to Manila from the South - and now I can go in and shut down its supply generation. The dozens of units in the pocket are hard to feed without it - but because he holds Clark uncontested - he still gets supplies.

We've tried it with the Singapore garrison. Allied supply was in the red at the time, poor morale and low weapons counts. The one advantage was that the enemy (Japan) had attacked recently at less than 1-1. Deliberate attacking was 1-1 and shock attacking was at 3-1.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

It should really help to bomb the defenders using army planes.

In the real war, constant air attacks attrited the garrision of Singapore and forced them to surrender. I think this is doable in RHS, too.

I'm still not very familiar with the Japanese in RHS, but one thing I have seen in my RHS-MAIO game: Those army bombers are much more effective against ground troops than they were in CHS or stock (where the results often don't justify the op and AAA losses). Raids of 100-200 Sallys and Lilys are devastating - comparable to bombardment runs of a good BB task force. Soon most of the AAA guns will be out of action and the dive bombers can add to the slaughter.

This observation is correct. The reason is that RHS uses historical bomb loads of small bombs - combined with a revision of how bombs are rated for soft effect. Japanese army bombers use 50 kg (Ki-21) or 15 kg (Ki-30, Ki-48, Ki-32 and Ki-51) bombs. [The 15 kg bomb = 33 pounds - so a 100 pound cluster bomb is used to represent 3 x 33 pound bombs] Since we use square root of weight for soft effect, using more smaller bombs really matters for soft targets. In EOS series - where IJA uses some Navy bombers - you will find this still is the case - when in JAAF service ARMY bombs are used - and for land unit or city type targets - they are more effective - while vs armored ships - they are less effective. The Army bombers are also more effective vs small and unarmored naval targets. Some air units have AP bombs - and some units are armed for ASW or other missions - but it turns out these weapons are shown in the unit loadout screen - even if not always on the default plane screen - and of course are noted in the unit name. This is so players can pick the right air unit for the mission.

The two keys to killing a strong point are logistics and airpower. Isolate it - use attacks (or succer the enemy in to making attacks - rejoice if he tries to "eject" you) to draw down supplies - and hit it with bombers. If he sends up fighters - he is eating supplies for them too - so that is also ending the battle sooner. Big cities STILL are TOO EASY to take in RHS - Hong Kong does not hold out until Christmas Day very often - Singapore does not hold out 100 days - and Manila defended by vastly more than history still falls too soon. I got us closer to the goal - city combat should be messy and prolonged - but not perfectly there.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Note that units being ejected from a hex are NEVER ejected by a pure supply sink such as is present at Singapore or Manila. [Hong Kong is different - it has a supply sink INSIDE a regular unit - but it is big - and a tiny enough enemy unit could be ejected by it] Only COMBAT units can "eject" enemy forces - and only if they have good supply, good morale, high weapons counts, and an enemy weak enough to obtain odds against.

Once upon a time a supply sink could shatter an attacker. No more. Unsupported supply sinks do not even demoralized attackers. However, SUPPORTED supply sinks - those in a hex with COMBAT units - DO contribute to hex defense - and tend to destroy some infrastructure the turn the hex falls (due to engineers present). It also is not perfectly efficient - as it degrades it will eat less supplies than it should - and so more of what supply is in the hex goes to the combat units than should (if they are present).

Strong teams of HQ, infantry, artillery and armor are powerful - even in hexes with no fortifications at all - and Scot was able to stop me cold in Malaya for many days - and still has me stopped cold North of Manila - halfway through January. But I did manage to take Lucena - putting me next to Manila from the South - and now I can go in and shut down its supply generation. The dozens of units in the pocket are hard to feed without it - but because he holds Clark uncontested - he still gets supplies.

We've tried it with the Singapore garrison. Allied supply was in the red at the time, poor morale and low weapons counts. The one advantage was that the enemy (Japan) had attacked recently at less than 1-1. Deliberate attacking was 1-1 and shock attacking was at 3-1.

Looks like there may be confusion here. Allied supply is never in the "red" - but rather in the "green" if good - and black if bad. It goes grey before it goes black. Red is the JAPANESE supply situation. If the Allies showed green, they are in good shape. I get to reduce Singapore itself - and Manila - in several test games this week - so I will watch closely. In one of them I have already invaded Manila - but not attacked because that was not my purpose. A single division should not attack dozens of enemy units before the logistic situation has marinated a bit. Instead - I am simply shutting down industrial and resource center production (but the supply sink keeps eating) - and waiting for other units to approach - and other hexes to stop feeding the place. During this period I will also bomb - on principle. It is dark grey. When I have more units - total isolation - and a black enemy - I will attack. If demoralized I attack every other day. But near the end - the attacks can go in every day - as they units won't demoralize even.

One factor is that in most of my test games (there is a single Sir Robin exception) Singapore is NOT full of units - the enemy split into three major groups - what I call East, West and South - in Malaya. This makes it easier to reduce the position - there is not the offensive combat power in the hex. Most players feel Singapore does not attract enough supplies to be an ideal defensive position - but I believe the popular view has it wrong: you should indeed fight for points north, but insure you fall back on Singapore instead of other directions - which you can do by judicious movements on the rail line - leaving only a rear guard to delay the advance AND COMBINE that with sending supply TO Singapore when it becomes isolated. This is perfectly feasible in huge numbers - if you have properly managed your fighters - and cover your ships with them out of Palembang and Singapore itself and on carriers. A strong force in Singapore with lots of supply will still fall - but it takes longer. While that occurs - remove units with no function - extra air station support - etc - and at the end - remove some portion of EACH combat unit (to rebuild). Use fast transports, air transports and submarines to do that.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Looks like there may be confusion here. Allied supply is never in the "red" - but rather in the "green" if good - and black if bad. It goes grey before it goes black.

Peering closely at the screen, I think I see what you mean. Singapore, with no supply left, seems to be a greyish green. The use of colours this way is considered bad human factors design. I have normal male colour perception and find it difficult to make out--think about the 10% of the players who are colour-blind.

[el cid again]

I think it is wrong to give us that information anyway - but I find I automatically notice and use it. I guess I am not color blind (well - they don't let color blind people be techs - due to color codes - so I kind of knew that). But it should not have been in the design in the first place, in my view. If they want to give us supply intel - let em do it with numbers.