As far as SP-MBT goes,I'm glad I still have my 1998 computer around 233 mhz/win 95 to run it.
It would surely lock up constantly (like spww2)on my primary system.
I know that Matrix are the king coders of SP.
Why do you think I'm trying to change thier minds about it.
Isn't the first installment of combat Leader supposed to be out relativly soon?
Petition SSI to allow Matrix to cash in on SPMW
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
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Paul Vebber
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Frankly even if Matrix dies and we end up doing stuff in our spare time becasue we like to, knowing it will never make any money, WHY ON EARTH would we go back to SP code and not work from the CL code base?
The biggest problem SP had with modern is the fact that modern weapons are so deadly that if you don't model the information flow correctly it becomes a totally whacked out game of "whack an M-1".
With out modeling the fact that the M-1 on the other side of map doesn;t immediatly know to shoot the T-80 the M-1 at the top of the map saw, the increased range and deadliness of modern weapons make modern combat in the SP engine a caricature of the real thing)
Doing SPWaW:Modern at this point would be MORE work for LESS return than going forward from the CL code base.
Combat Leader is a fair bit behind, again becasue we made a bad assumption that the Megacampaign sales to support would come...they did not. SO we are basically in the "do it in your spare time mode anyway with CL..."
TO go back to SP now would mean at least 6 mos "getting back into that code" and in that time CL would easily "catch up".
THere was a window where we had to make a decision to move on to something that had a hope for return on investment. THe support of Mega-Camapigns has trailed off to a trickle, insufficient to support much in the way of future SP:WaW support, let alone what we ad hoped for CL.
We can;t make something out of nothing. We thank those of you that did support us - MC sales did help keep our heads above water. But while it was a life ring to cling to, it didn't let us build a raft with a sail to move ahead as we had hoped.
We made it clear that your support of SP:WaW through MC sales would dictate our future course. We thank those of you that put your money where your mouth is, but not enough did.
We ahve to put our effort into that which we will at least have the potential to try to sell!
Though I still fear that the future of computer wargaming may be semi-pro shareware or givaways, since the ability to make a living making wargames appears to be near an end.
The biggest problem SP had with modern is the fact that modern weapons are so deadly that if you don't model the information flow correctly it becomes a totally whacked out game of "whack an M-1".
With out modeling the fact that the M-1 on the other side of map doesn;t immediatly know to shoot the T-80 the M-1 at the top of the map saw, the increased range and deadliness of modern weapons make modern combat in the SP engine a caricature of the real thing)
Doing SPWaW:Modern at this point would be MORE work for LESS return than going forward from the CL code base.
Combat Leader is a fair bit behind, again becasue we made a bad assumption that the Megacampaign sales to support would come...they did not. SO we are basically in the "do it in your spare time mode anyway with CL..."
TO go back to SP now would mean at least 6 mos "getting back into that code" and in that time CL would easily "catch up".
THere was a window where we had to make a decision to move on to something that had a hope for return on investment. THe support of Mega-Camapigns has trailed off to a trickle, insufficient to support much in the way of future SP:WaW support, let alone what we ad hoped for CL.
We can;t make something out of nothing. We thank those of you that did support us - MC sales did help keep our heads above water. But while it was a life ring to cling to, it didn't let us build a raft with a sail to move ahead as we had hoped.
We made it clear that your support of SP:WaW through MC sales would dictate our future course. We thank those of you that put your money where your mouth is, but not enough did.
We ahve to put our effort into that which we will at least have the potential to try to sell!
Though I still fear that the future of computer wargaming may be semi-pro shareware or givaways, since the ability to make a living making wargames appears to be near an end.
Well I think it will take about a year to patch CL to state where it satisfies everyone. SpWaW had some 15 patches and still there are complaints.
The mistake Matrix made was to listen to each and every demand - it killed SPMW since everyone wanted MDWs, hostages, etc...
And if you try to make everyone happy, well, you'll make no one happy at the end...
I don't know if you frequent Spww2/Spmbt boards but there also were requests like "put chemical wapons in", or "we want more tanks". For good and bad of it SPC sticks to it's vision and includes player comments only if they are valid - they don't give a **** about "we listen to everyone" sticker.
Oh and BTW I always was surprised by b****g about free games, and I sometimes can't understand ppl who slam SpWaW - hey this game is free after all...
The mistake Matrix made was to listen to each and every demand - it killed SPMW since everyone wanted MDWs, hostages, etc...
And if you try to make everyone happy, well, you'll make no one happy at the end...
I don't know if you frequent Spww2/Spmbt boards but there also were requests like "put chemical wapons in", or "we want more tanks". For good and bad of it SPC sticks to it's vision and includes player comments only if they are valid - they don't give a **** about "we listen to everyone" sticker.
Oh and BTW I always was surprised by b****g about free games, and I sometimes can't understand ppl who slam SpWaW - hey this game is free after all...
Can't make a living out of wargames ? Hey, ask Battlefront...
Wargames as commercial product are not dead. Turn-based IGOUGO wargames with DOS-era graphics are dead as commercial products. They're fine as free games - SpWaW and Spww2/SpMbt - but this summer I'll have choice - CL or CM:BB - and the answer is rather simple.
I'm sure many US wargamers can afford to buy 3 MC's, CL, UV, and t-shirt and coffee mug, but for example we Eastern-European Euros are not so spoiled for choice...
Wargames as commercial product are not dead. Turn-based IGOUGO wargames with DOS-era graphics are dead as commercial products. They're fine as free games - SpWaW and Spww2/SpMbt - but this summer I'll have choice - CL or CM:BB - and the answer is rather simple.
I'm sure many US wargamers can afford to buy 3 MC's, CL, UV, and t-shirt and coffee mug, but for example we Eastern-European Euros are not so spoiled for choice...
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Paul Vebber
- Posts: 5342
- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2000 4:00 pm
- Location: Portsmouth RI
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CL vs CM is like Board games vs miniatures. They get the advantage that it immediately appeals to FPS fans. We'll see if GI'COmbat makes it before we judge that "everything not 3D is dead".
CL will show that 3D isn't everything
Try running more than a couple of companies in CM...You can't tackle the scope of game you can in CL (or SP series for that matter) with CM...
CM has been the best selling game to come along in along time, but how sure are you that they have made up for the 3+ years they have invested in the game? The money form CM may make it a lot easier to work on CM:BB, but they programmed CM "spare time" like most others.
We'll see how CM"BB sells compared to CM...hopefully it will do well, but sequels rarely do as well as the first time around...
"Listening to the customers" certainly didn't kill a modern version of SP:WaW and we did NOT haphazardly incorporated chanes that weren't compatible. The problems were in the code base itself for indows and as such it was easier to start over than to disasseble and reassemble them. Who said we tried to incorporate hostages and stuff in and that killed it...way off the mark Gud... :rolleyes:
CL will show that 3D isn't everything
Try running more than a couple of companies in CM...You can't tackle the scope of game you can in CL (or SP series for that matter) with CM...
CM has been the best selling game to come along in along time, but how sure are you that they have made up for the 3+ years they have invested in the game? The money form CM may make it a lot easier to work on CM:BB, but they programmed CM "spare time" like most others.
We'll see how CM"BB sells compared to CM...hopefully it will do well, but sequels rarely do as well as the first time around...
"Listening to the customers" certainly didn't kill a modern version of SP:WaW and we did NOT haphazardly incorporated chanes that weren't compatible. The problems were in the code base itself for indows and as such it was easier to start over than to disasseble and reassemble them. Who said we tried to incorporate hostages and stuff in and that killed it...way off the mark Gud... :rolleyes:
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troopie
- Posts: 644
- Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Directly above the centre of the Earth.
Gentlemen,
Matrix is NOT going to make a modern SP. They are too involved in coding Combat Leader. To go back would cost a great deal of time, and then they would have another product they couldn't sell. They are a corporation, and want to make money, not lose it.
Combat Leader will be a native windows product. That is a Good Thing now that Microsquish has stopped supporting MS-Dos. Also it will have even better sound than SPWAW, and that is one of SPWAW's superiorities to SPWW2, and one of the things I miss when playing SPWW2.
As for the modern combat module, Paul, "Etonne' moi." What I hope is that it will not stop with WP/NATO heavy metal and they throw a bone to us COIN types.
And Ilja and Bill never said they were putting hostages, peacekeepers, ABC in SPMW. It was suggested by people. Nuclear and Biological weapons were specifically excluded by the game's scale.
troopie
Matrix is NOT going to make a modern SP. They are too involved in coding Combat Leader. To go back would cost a great deal of time, and then they would have another product they couldn't sell. They are a corporation, and want to make money, not lose it.
Combat Leader will be a native windows product. That is a Good Thing now that Microsquish has stopped supporting MS-Dos. Also it will have even better sound than SPWAW, and that is one of SPWAW's superiorities to SPWW2, and one of the things I miss when playing SPWW2.
As for the modern combat module, Paul, "Etonne' moi." What I hope is that it will not stop with WP/NATO heavy metal and they throw a bone to us COIN types.
And Ilja and Bill never said they were putting hostages, peacekeepers, ABC in SPMW. It was suggested by people. Nuclear and Biological weapons were specifically excluded by the game's scale.
troopie
Pamwe Chete
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
I haven't played Combat Mission, maybe my remarks are pointless. But looking at the comments on what makes it what it is.....
Cute has never been a selling point with me. Nifty 3d graphics are to me just a pointless use of computational power in my opinion.
The counter art in ASL is impressive, but in the end, all I need to know is, is it a tank or an artillery piece eh. So it stands to reason I think the images in Steel Panthers are first rate. But 3d, nah thats an unnecessary level of detail. If the 3d limits the scope of Combat Mission, then the trade off wasn't worth the eye candy gain.
I have seen one to many games unable to run on a decent computer, because the fools designing the game couldn't limit their attention to just making a good simulation.
A long time back I had Patton Strikes Back as a favourite game. But inbedded in it was all sorts of film clips. It really didn't do anything to make the game better. And it did make the computer work harder for nothing.
Even my favourite Operational Art of War insists on a 3d rendering in a separate window. This detail really accomplishes nothing though (other than requiring more computer power).
Wargames are about simulation admittedly. But unless the game is you driving a specific tank around (as if you were actually IN the tank), then 3d loses any real worth.
Of course there are those that crave eye candy and need an ever increasing dose of it. Those same people are the reason why most movies have grotesque levels of special effects with tiny pieces of acting (if acting at all) linking them together.
Today's hardware is getting more and more capable, but just being capable, does not automatically translate software bells into justifyable options.
I have not tried Combat Mission as yet, mainly because bells are not a selling point to me. Additionally, no matter how good a game might be, it can't always be made to do everything. That's primarily why I am not counted among the many that absolutely must see Matrix make a Steel Panthers version of every permutation of action or time period (including Modern).
I probably won't see anything wrong with the cd of Steel Panthers 2 I have sought out from the CD Access.com people.
But that is mainly because I don't have the passion needed to delve into the data I suppose. I usually only complain when a game does something clearly obnoxious in such a way that it spoils the fun somehow.
It won't be up to the standards of SPWaW, and it won't likely play nice with my primary OS (that being XP). So I will just install it in my secondary Win 98 OS (nothing like having your cake and eating it too).
If some day Matrix is done with Combat Leader, I will find it very peculiar to see them dust off the Steel Panthers code, just to rework a program, that is made to look like a waste of time by Combat Leader.
Sure I would like to find a mint copy of Basic Squad Leader. But as lovingly as I hold my first playings of that game, I have no interest in people making modules for it.
If Combat Leader succeeds (as it should). Odds are I will delete Steel Panthers off the drive, and settle for using it as a basis of fond memories.
Cute has never been a selling point with me. Nifty 3d graphics are to me just a pointless use of computational power in my opinion.
The counter art in ASL is impressive, but in the end, all I need to know is, is it a tank or an artillery piece eh. So it stands to reason I think the images in Steel Panthers are first rate. But 3d, nah thats an unnecessary level of detail. If the 3d limits the scope of Combat Mission, then the trade off wasn't worth the eye candy gain.
I have seen one to many games unable to run on a decent computer, because the fools designing the game couldn't limit their attention to just making a good simulation.
A long time back I had Patton Strikes Back as a favourite game. But inbedded in it was all sorts of film clips. It really didn't do anything to make the game better. And it did make the computer work harder for nothing.
Even my favourite Operational Art of War insists on a 3d rendering in a separate window. This detail really accomplishes nothing though (other than requiring more computer power).
Wargames are about simulation admittedly. But unless the game is you driving a specific tank around (as if you were actually IN the tank), then 3d loses any real worth.
Of course there are those that crave eye candy and need an ever increasing dose of it. Those same people are the reason why most movies have grotesque levels of special effects with tiny pieces of acting (if acting at all) linking them together.
Today's hardware is getting more and more capable, but just being capable, does not automatically translate software bells into justifyable options.
I have not tried Combat Mission as yet, mainly because bells are not a selling point to me. Additionally, no matter how good a game might be, it can't always be made to do everything. That's primarily why I am not counted among the many that absolutely must see Matrix make a Steel Panthers version of every permutation of action or time period (including Modern).
I probably won't see anything wrong with the cd of Steel Panthers 2 I have sought out from the CD Access.com people.
But that is mainly because I don't have the passion needed to delve into the data I suppose. I usually only complain when a game does something clearly obnoxious in such a way that it spoils the fun somehow.
It won't be up to the standards of SPWaW, and it won't likely play nice with my primary OS (that being XP). So I will just install it in my secondary Win 98 OS (nothing like having your cake and eating it too).
If some day Matrix is done with Combat Leader, I will find it very peculiar to see them dust off the Steel Panthers code, just to rework a program, that is made to look like a waste of time by Combat Leader.
Sure I would like to find a mint copy of Basic Squad Leader. But as lovingly as I hold my first playings of that game, I have no interest in people making modules for it.
If Combat Leader succeeds (as it should). Odds are I will delete Steel Panthers off the drive, and settle for using it as a basis of fond memories.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
I think as Paul has said, that CL will be a vast improvement over a SPWAW Modern. Now that work has begun on CL it would be I think, pointless to go back to SPWAW Modern. We can't have it all, so we should wait a while longer and get a superior product. I too wanted a modern SPWAW, but now that would be a duplication of effort for Matrix. Now we have to make sure that enough people buy CL. I'm sure Matrix will build an excellent game, but people need to buy it for Matrix to continue with all the modules. So, on my tank turret I'm painting "On to Combat Leader!"
Semper Fi
Randy
The United States Marines: America's 911 Force-The Tip of the Spear
Randy
The United States Marines: America's 911 Force-The Tip of the Spear
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
Hmmmm hostile sounding demo there Mac.
I once lost 20 bucks to a tech that had to rescue my system from an anal demo wargame that locked up my system in a way I had no skill in understanding eh.
Turn off the system and reboot and game loaded and locked right up each time too.
So naturally demo is a word that doesn't win any points with me.
Only software I use is the actual program or nothing at all in my case.
Demos seem to suffer from incredibly crappy quality control
I once lost 20 bucks to a tech that had to rescue my system from an anal demo wargame that locked up my system in a way I had no skill in understanding eh.
Turn off the system and reboot and game loaded and locked right up each time too.
So naturally demo is a word that doesn't win any points with me.
Only software I use is the actual program or nothing at all in my case.
Demos seem to suffer from incredibly crappy quality control
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
MacCready, yeah I know. I wish the SPWAWM worked, but now with the work being focused for CL w/ its new game engine I don't think it would work for Matrix to split their efforts. I guess the poor sales of the Mega Campaigns didn't help either. Plus with all the new stuff that will be incorporated into CL I really think they would be duplicating their efforts. I really am looking forward to modern stuff (airmoble troops <including light vehicles>, C-130s and light armor, airborne and choppers, all that stuff), plus a larger map like SPWAW etc. But I'm looking forward to CL, and I know when it comes out it will be unsurpassed. As I said earlier, my tank turret reads "On to Combat Leader". I hope this helps.
Semper Fi
Randy
The United States Marines: America's 911 Force-The Tip of the Spear
Randy
The United States Marines: America's 911 Force-The Tip of the Spear
I'm ready to move on,but the SP collection of yours is incomplete.
A fantastic WW2 version (SPWAW) was created and the Modern era counterpart was forsaken...
I don't think I'll ever get over that.
I would have prefered that they never announced that they were going to do it.
Its going to be some time before we see any modern CL.*
SP:MBT Due to be released in two day (6/14/02)
While I'm sure I will enjoy this game,its not windows friendly.
And its a modified version of SP2,not SP3 like SPWAW.
SP3 is the better engine.
And SPWAW is even a better engine.(Thanks Matrix)
*In all fairness to Matrix I have a feeling that when I actually play Combat Leader:Eastern Front I will probably have a whole new perspective.
A fantastic WW2 version (SPWAW) was created and the Modern era counterpart was forsaken...
I don't think I'll ever get over that.
I would have prefered that they never announced that they were going to do it.
Its going to be some time before we see any modern CL.*
SP:MBT Due to be released in two day (6/14/02)
While I'm sure I will enjoy this game,its not windows friendly.
And its a modified version of SP2,not SP3 like SPWAW.
SP3 is the better engine.
And SPWAW is even a better engine.(Thanks Matrix)
*In all fairness to Matrix I have a feeling that when I actually play Combat Leader:Eastern Front I will probably have a whole new perspective.