Nemo & 1EyedJacks - Open Thread

[Nemo121]

Planning's coming along although I only got home late from work today...
 
So far the Soviet sub force at Vladivostok is fairly much neutralised ( an average of 30 subs out of the 39 at Vladivostok sink on Day 1 ) and the Hawaiian invasion force is firming up ( still need to firm up some of the ancillary units but the overall force is in place ). In other news the landings at the Philippines and Borneo/DEI are well in hand.
 
I would tell you where my paraborne landings are except that you might move your fighters to CAP or LRCAP those bases and take a massive toll of my few transports and I don't want that.

[1EyedJacks]

Hello Nemo,

Do you have an updated List of Changes Document? I see that respawning has been re-instituted for the allies. Are there any deviations to the normal respawning of ship types from the stock scenario?

Are there any bonuses added/removed from this mod?

I know there are some changes to allied subs where a few of them receive search aircraft. I'm looking for information on any new units or modifications to units that are in this mod.


TTFN,

Mike

[1EyedJacks]

25. The Allies may redeploy LCU/LBA within their existing territorial commands. Both sides will be allowed to have their LBA accept pilots and reinforcements.

I'll admit that that I haven't played the allies B4 but... Why do so many allied air units start out damaged? I mean, with this kind of a starting point I see little advantage to the ability to move ACU (Air Combat Units).

Is a high starting damage percentage for allied ACU normal in the stock games, CHS, and RHS? Is this to simulate that the allies are not ready for war? Or is this because of the December 7th Suprise?

[ny59giants]

Next thing you will find out very quickly is the lack of enough Aviation Support. Some units have enough of it, but at least half is disabled. If the Allies had their BF and other Aviation Support units at full strength in this area, they would cause considerable damage, IMO.

The "fun" is which of these do you allow replacements to be turned on for. Many of the BFs also carry up to 40 Infantry squads. So if you turn them on for their Aviation Support to increase, you will also get Infantry squads that you may have wanted to go to your Bde/Div. The Allied side is not all "fun and games" like you may have been lead to believe. [;)] More decisions to be made.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Next thing you will find out very quickly is the lack of enough Aviation Support. Some units have enough of it, but at least half is disabled. If the Allies had their BF and other Aviation Support units at full strength in this area, they would cause considerable damage, IMO.

The "fun" is which of these do you allow replacements to be turned on for. Many of the BFs also carry up to 40 Infantry squads. So if you turn them on for their Aviation Support to increase, you will also get Infantry squads that you may have wanted to go to your Bde/Div. The Allied side is not all "fun and games" like you may have been lead to believe. [;)] More decisions to be made.

Yeah - I thought because the allies didn't have to worry to much about production that playing on the allied side of the board would be easy. I've been boning up on some of the changes.

[Nemo121]

1EyedJacks,
 
I inherited these non-operational plane levels from RHS and they were the same when I've played EA as the Allies ( twice now ). FWIW I have several entire Sentai which are out of action at game start due to just having upgraded ( not by my choice ) and a whole load more training Daitai ( you'll be seeing most of the training Daitai over Vladivostok on Day 1.
 
So, I've tested things and I've given my movement orders for China and Korea - which basically consists of a mad dash to the border as my forces are as out of place as yours [:D] - and I'm finalising the loading of my support units ( air HQs, Army HQs and engineer units ) for the SRA campaign.
 
I am confident of having a turn for you tomorrow, possibly even today but definitely tomorrow. Given that the Soviet Union is going to be active I've let loose the leash in the SRA quite significantly. There were a lot of places I was going to invade on Day 3 onward which now I'm invading on Day 1 but it shouldn't be any too unbalancing, just something which increases your headaches in SRA to compensate for the increased headaches you will give me in the Soviet Union and China now.

So, I have about 2 more test runs to do after I load up a few more convoys and set some more recon targets and then I'll send it your way.
 
I hope you enjoy the game and that it provides a useful learning experience - for you and I in terms of understanding the mod and tweaking it ( I welcome the advice of you and your advisors on this BTW ) and for both of us and the readers in terms of strategy and technical-tactical matters.
 
P.s. Who actually are your advisors out of interest? There's no need to tell me but :
a) I'm curious and
b) I've read ALL of your posts as preparation for this game and I would intend to do the same for any of your advisors. I'm sure ny59giants ( who has a similar background in mental health as I ) will be urging you to focus on the man behind the mod ( and that's advice I'd agree with in terms of "knowing one's enemy" )

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

1EyedJacks,

I inherited these non-operational plane levels from RHS and they were the same when I've played EA as the Allies ( twice now ). FWIW I have several entire Sentai which are out of action at game start due to just having upgraded ( not by my choice ) and a whole load more training Daitai ( you'll be seeing most of the training Daitai over Vladivostok on Day 1.

So, I've tested things and I've given my movement orders for China and Korea - which basically consists of a mad dash to the border as my forces are as out of place as yours [:D] - and I'm finalising the loading of my support units ( air HQs, Army HQs and engineer units ) for the SRA campaign.

I am confident of having a turn for you tomorrow, possibly even today but definitely tomorrow. Given that the Soviet Union is going to be active I've let loose the leash in the SRA quite significantly. There were a lot of places I was going to invade on Day 3 onward which now I'm invading on Day 1 but it shouldn't be any too unbalancing, just something which increases your headaches in SRA to compensate for the increased headaches you will give me in the Soviet Union and China now.

So, I have about 2 more test runs to do after I load up a few more convoys and set some more recon targets and then I'll send it your way.

I hope you enjoy the game and that it provides a useful learning experience - for you and I in terms of understanding the mod and tweaking it ( I welcome the advice of you and your advisors on this BTW ) and for both of us and the readers in terms of strategy and technical-tactical matters.

P.s. Who actually are your advisors out of interest? There's no need to tell me but :
a) I'm curious and
b) I've read ALL of your posts as preparation for this game and I would intend to do the same for any of your advisors. I'm sure ny59giants ( who has a similar background in mental health as I ) will be urging you to focus on the man behind the mod ( and that's advice I'd agree with in terms of "knowing one's enemy" )

Hi Nemo,

What would determine if the game was unbalanced based on your day 1 attacks?

I guess strategically it would be in my best interest to not answer your question regarding my Advisors? [:D]

But that wouldn't be me. Right now I have three advisors - Michael, Alfred, and Robert. Robert is a good friend and neighbor that I wargame with on the occasional weekend. Rob of course, hates computers but likes board games. I printed out the map and some of the info from WiTP Tracker that I pulled from my game with Carl. Robert is putting some time into studying the info and pooring over the map. I might just turn him into a computer-user with this game! [:D][:D]

I must admit that I'm a little aprehensive in regards to the extensive testing you are doing... I realize that you want to test out the mod and we both want to win - all of that is cool. And we will help you with any recommendations regarding tweaks to the mod that we come up with. I just want to make sure that there is a reasonable chance for the allied side to come back in 1943. I've looked at the reserves and replacement levels for some of my aircraft and they are already very poor. If you wipe out most of my ACU on the ground with December 7 Suprise and I can't replace them then I don't know how much of a real test you are getting on your mod from this game.

As an example, right now it looks like the Dutch combat airframe replacement rate/at start pool stockpiles are as follows:

Brewster 339D - 0/10
CW-21B Demon - 0/9
Hawk 75 - 5/2

Martin 139 - 0/41

T.IVa - 0/6

Do 24K-2 - 0/14
Catalina - 16/33 (shared with the British and Australians etc)

So it looks like my total monthly Dutch combat airframe replacement rate is 5 fighters and 0 bombers per month to get me thru until 1 July of 1942. With the low combat rating of my pilots this looks pretty grim...

[Nemo121]

Well, what would be unbalancing would be for me to hit CONUSA with a 2 CV strike aimed at taking your docked USN CV out of the game before it even left port - and giving me an additional 3 months of superiority in the Pacific. Additionally I could make Day 1 landings in a number of contested areas in the Pacific ( Canton, Midway  etc ) which would allow me to hem your CVs in with Level 4 airfields and sink them with long-range Betty strikes backed up by my 4 KB CVs and some CVLs within the first 3 to 4 days. That would be highly unbalancing and since it wasn't active CV-hunting but rather a more passive limiting of escape routes I considered it briefly but discarded it as too unfair. Hence I confined myself to a KB strike on PH and land-based airstrikes against Vladivostok, Hong Kong, Manilla and Singapore. Two small CV TFs hit two other ports controlled by the Dutch.

I've given some thought to your aircraft situation and I think you will find my solution fair. I won't tell you what it is as it would give you too much advantage to know it prior to game start.


As to the Dutch - Well they shouldn't be your premier combat forces. The US ( I've given them many times the stock game's replacement rates ) and the British ( fragile but quite good ) should bear the brunt of the fighting. In my game vs Jagdfluger ( in which Japan was considerably stronger than it is in this version of the mod and in which the Allies were quite a bit weaker ) I managed to build a British reserve of some 200 pilot which I maintained into mid-42.

It is ALL about logistics and only using those airframes and units which you have the reserves to replace. IOW this means not using the Dutch much on the front lines BUT feeling free to use them in the rear areas. What I will say is that when the time came for the Dutch to upgrade I had about 60 Beauforts and other tactical bombers available, upgraded all but two of the Dutch bomber squadrons and then left those two to operate using Martin 139s with a good number of Martins in reserve.

I also had about 6 Dutch fighter units still available for action and upgraded them and put them to work guarding rear area bases freeing up my USAAF and British fighter squadrons for the front line. The Dutch have a place but as is historically correct they aren't exactly fit for continuous front-line work. Between the US and British you have 680 front-line pilots well capable of going toe to toe with Japanese pilots once they get the right airframes ( and since they get Hurricanes, Spitfires and lots of P-40s, Kittyhawks as well as early model P-38s and P-51XPs) you actually get more high0quality airframes more quickly in this mod.... especially since I fixed it so that twin-engined planes now perform well in combat. So, it really isn't that bleak. By April 1942 I was getting better than 1:1 in fighter on fighter duels vs the Japanese ( as can be seen in my AAR ) and on several days came close to shooting down and killing 100 elite ( CV-based ) Zero pilots per day. That's half the entire IJN pilot replacements for an entire month downed in a single day. There's no reason you can't do the same with some long-term planning and selective choice over what you will fight to defend and how.


As to the testing... Well I'm making sure that TFs go where I want them to go and that my forces co-ordinate properly on 7th December. I don't want units to arrive in one place while their LRCAP is in another.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
As to the testing... Well I'm making sure that TFs go where I want them to go and that my forces co-ordinate properly on 7th December. I don't want units to arrive in one place while their LRCAP is in another.

Well I wouldn't mind...[:D][:D]

[Nemo121]

LOL! Yeah but I would [:D]
 
It is amazing how variable things are. In one test I sank 3 BBs at PH and totally crippled the other 5. Multiple CLs and the CA were also crippled. In the very next test 1 BB sank but 4 were combat-capable and capable of sortieing the next day. Very weird.

Unfortunately it looks like it is going to be tomorrow... I am almost done but it is after midnight here now...

[Capt. Harlock]

I also had about 6 Dutch fighter units still available for action and upgraded them and put them to work guarding rear area bases freeing up my USAAF and British fighter squadrons for the front line. The Dutch have a place but as is historically correct they aren't exactly fit for continuous front-line work.

Isn't there a limitation that Dutch air units cannot change aircraft models until July '42? That may be what happened historically, but I see no need to impose that limit in this mod.

[Nemo121]

Neither do I but it is hard-coded ( as is the British upgrade date. If I could change it I would as I believe in giving freedom to all but I can't change it ). Sure it is a hurdle for the Allies BUT compared to when I played the Allied they get 50% more P-40Es, 50% more MiG-3s, 50% more Pe-2s, about double the number of SBD-3s, an entire new class of strategic bomber ( which is a highly effective CV-killer, I lost Kaga to a 6 plane flight of B-19s in one of my test runs of this mod .... 9 B-19s went in, the CAP of over 60 Zeroes destroyed 3 and the other 6 all went for Kaga pounding it with 4 x 500lbers... She probably won't sink but she is totally hors de combat ) so they really aren't that hard up. Plus just to help out a bit I gave them an extra 4 Essex class CVs to help out in mid to late 45 ( in case their losses are very heavy ). So, really, I don't think the Allies are in extremis. 1942 will be a bad year but smart play can bleed me and in 1943 they'll come back strong with Corsairs on their CVs and about 170 Hellcats per month as well as another 120 Corsairs purely for their marine units. Add in the Experimental P-51s which arrive a year early and the fact that the P-38 will be competitive and by October I'll be meeting fighters better than my own in the air and by January the Allies will be getting 250 top-rate fighters per month or their CVs and another 200 or so for their USMC and USAAF units. Right there, before you even count the British or Aussies etc they can, with a 1:1 exchange rate, take out every trained pilot I produce per month.

Anyways, if they use their Dutch air properly it can be quite useful even before it upgrades. I used the fighters for rear base defence and the bombers for naval search and ASW and I got kills using both methods.

[1EyedJacks]

Hi Nemo,

Regarding House Rule 26... What is the intent in regards to TK/AP/AK

I have 2 AK and 1 AP "anchored" at PH. Can I disban these TFs? All 3 have home port = PH and destination = PH so in effect, they've arrived at their destination...

There's another AK or AP headed towards PH from the NE. I assume that ship cannot have orders changed - right?

[Nemo121]

1EyedJacks,

Well that's a formed TF so you can feel free to give it any orders you want. So if you want to disband it into PH then feel free to do so. In addition as regards the AP headed to PH from the NE you can give it whatever orders you wish ( including going back the way it came ).
 
Obviously there's a limit on this as while you can give whatever orders you want to your CVs I'd look very askance if I suddenly found them popping up among my supply lines running North of Midway on Day 1 ( Day 2 is fine obviously since they could be reacting and moving north to Alaska - which is what I'm assuming you'll do ). On the other hand if you said "Well, I'd like to run them to Midway and if they happen to hit an enemy invasion convoy then so be it" or "I think they might be heading to Australia so I'm going to have them sprint that way from December 7th ) that'd be fine since you, like I, would be seeking to avoid TF ambushes on Day 1 ( except for invasion TFs happening to be in the same hex and bombard missions ).
 
P.s. Did you get the turn file? I sent it last night.

[1EyedJacks]

Hi Nemo,

I have to declare a foul on myself... I popped on to page 1 of your closed thread a few minutes ago thinking it was our shared AAR by mistake. I was trying to hunt up AndyMac's post so I could click his link and PM the password for the allied side. I'll I can say is that I did not read anything other than enough of the 1st post to realize I was in the wrong AAR and then I immediately got out.

There's not much else I can say except that I'm sorry - it really is not my intention to cause any issues to the game start. All I have to offer is my word that I did not read your AAR.


TTFN,

Mike

[Nemo121]

That's fine, mistakes happen after all. When push comes to shove all we have to go on with closed AARs is the hope that our opponents ( plus advisors ) abide by the rules and would rather lose honestly than win through cheating.

With that said I'm comfortable with the fact that mistakes will happen but so long as no-one tries to capitalise on them it's all cool. I'm around this afternoon if you get the turn out I can send you the replay ASAP.

[1EyedJacks]

Hi Nemo,

I'd like to discuss the initial turn vs the stated house rules. Perhaps I mis-enterpreted the house rules but...

I think that you might have made a slight mistake in the use of your para LCU per house rule 17.
17. Sub/para drops only on dot beach/base hexes are allowed provided the entire LCU/air transport unit participates. Drops of only a few squads, or outside of dot beach/base hexes are not permitted.

The 1st Raiding Bde has landed at both Tavoy and Port Blair. A mouse-over shows ther are only 20 troops at Port Blair.





Also, the Yoko 3 Airbourne SNLF has landed at Tawi Tawi, Naga, Sorong, and Vigan...









You also landed the Yoko 2 Airbourne at Johnston Isle. I just want to confirm that if you use a para unit to attack a base or dot hex you have to use the whole unit and will need to insure you have enough Transport ACU to get the whole para-unit to the destination.



It seems to me that the invasions at Amboina and Kendari would have required your ships to travel through Dutch waters and not international waters as defined in House Rule #23 - do you agree?
23. Japanese sea invasions, which approach the aerial reconned invasion site from international waters and sail from nearby Japanese bases, are permitted.


I'm more than willing to discuss the turn but my initial thought is that we might need to re-do turn 1...

[Nemo121]

I discussed this with Alfred when he insisted on this rule and the understanding we reached was that he was trying to avoid situations in which a transport unit was split into multiple tiny parts to drop a single squad here, there and everywhere. So, we agreed that so long as a FULL transport unit was used for the drop then the drop was kosher ( hence the inclusion of the "entire air transport unit" section of the rule ). I can confirm that in the case of each of the subsidiary drops ( Naga, Port Blair etc ) that my force was carried by a full squadron of at least twelve planes, completely in compliance with the rules.

As to Port Blair - There are over 100 troops there, your mouse-over is wrong. I used a Mavis unit to fly them there - a horrendous number of troops are disabled - but from memory there are more than 100 there. The mouse-over isn't perfect intel.
 
3rd Yokosuka SNLF - Again, each landing was carried out by a full squadron's worth of planes carrying elements of the SNLF. I would refer you to the Japanese parachute assault on Koepang ( which I recently read about ) which featured 14 to 15 planes dropping parachutists on two consecutive days. Historically squadron-sized drops did happen and that's why I insisted on the "entire air unit" bit being in the rules as demanding an entire Bn or division be assigned per target is plainly ahistorical and difficult to manage given the paucity of air transports at the beginning of the game. On December 7th it is simply an unworkable rule UNLESS you allow that so long as an entire squadron does the lift then that lift is kosher. I feel that an entire Mavis squadron is a more than adequate lift force to satisfy such a rule given the Mavis' load capacity.
 
So, from your point of view this means I have no problems with you using your airborne forces in the same way. The Dutch start the game with a parachute force and the Americans quickly get 2 or 3 IIRC. So long as a full transport or floatplane squadron is used for the drop ( or a full airborne unit of Bn or greater size ) then its kosher, no more questions asked.
 
 
As to Kendari and Amboina --- Well, those are well-recognised Day 1 invasions in-game and I don't see any problem with them. Amboina certainly is just a single day's sailing from the Weda Sorong line and so is totally kosher IMO. Kendari should be kosher too IMO. When Alfred and I discussed this rule it was with a view to keeping certain islands deep in the Pacific safe on Day 1 and preventing Japan capturing everything by means of coup de main landings on December 7th.
 
 
Don't forget that in history when Japanese TFs DID sail into Dutch waters on 5th December the Dutch tried to activate their tripartite defence treaty with britain and USA but Britain and USA refused. So that gives the Japanese 2 days of sailing in Dutch waters. 2 days = 8 hexes and given that I think those landings are very fair.
 
Since I REALLY don't want to have to redo turn 1 what I would be prepare to do is the following:
1. Hold off my assault on Kendari for an additional two days so instead of attacking on December 9th I will only attack on December 11th. This will allow you to do whatever you want in terms of cadre evacuation and can simulate the fact that my forces there only landed on December 8th/9th and thus took two days to unload and attack.
 
2. I really don't see anything wrong with Amboina ( which is a regular Turn 1 target in my games and within 1 days' sailing from non-Dutch waters ) but if you want a single days' grace there then I can give that. So instead of attacking on the 9th I'll only attack on the 10th ( simulating the fact that I steamed hard for Kendari from 6th December but only arrived ( in our alternate universe ) on the 8th of December.
 
That should give you what you want without crucifying me with having to replot Turn 1 - something which I find soul-destroying [8D]
 
 
3. As to the Parachutists. Well "entire air units" WERE used for each drop. I get some 12 plane transport and 8 plane patrol squadrons and so I used those for some of the drops. That's exactly as the rules state it should be. I think that another alternative ( setting the smallest size of unit that can be dropped to a Bn ) is fraught with danger as what happens if a Bn drops onto 5 divisions. Are you then FORCED to commit the rest of the Bn to that drop to satisfy the rules or can you send the Bn to another place on Day 2? If you can send it elsewhere then really you are operating a "1 drop per unit per day" rule BUT if you implement that rule then you end up with a situation in which a Bn can have 1 target while a Division of 9 Bns can ALSO only have one target --- which is plainly ridiculous given that each Bn would really be able to plan for different dropzones.
 
So you either end up with a horrendously complicated rule in which "Each air unit can only be assigned a single target per day, unless it contains multiple Bns in which case it can hit as many targets as it has Bns BUT there's no onus on a player to follow through on a plainly doomed landing." OR you keep it simple and say that so long as a single squadron is assigned to a single target then things are kosher. I hit on the single squadron idea since I figured that 12 to 16 planes each carrying 10 men would bring roughly a company into action and a company was about the smallest force the Japanese ever deployed by parachute ( Koepang ).
 
All of my landings conformed to the "1 entire air unit" per target rule we agreed to. Alfred misappreciated the level of air transport available on December 7th when he initially broached the rule to me. As I'm more familiar with what is and isn't possible in-game I insisted on the " entire air unit" bit being added as I could foresee terrible complications arising when all the IJN transport assets available on December 7th 1941 wouldn't prove sufficient to lift the IJA Airborne Bde on Day 1.
 

[Nemo121]

So, basically, I don't see anything wrong with the landings but if you do then I don't want hard feelings. Equally though I don't think I could handle a replot of Turn 1 ( the last one took me four days ). So,
1. Delay the attack on Kendari by 2 days ( 11th December ) to simulate my landings only beginning 9th December 1941.
2. Delay the attack on Amboine by 1 day ( 10th December ) to simulate my landings only beginning 8th December 1941.

This actually benefits you as you get 1 to 2 extra days of attacks on my shipping and can do more damage to them without fear of being Shock Attacked and destroyed a la Johnston.

3. Parachutist landings conform completely to the rules we agree so no change there.

Fair?

[modrow]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

I discussed this with Alfred when he insisted on this rule and the understanding we reached was that he was trying to avoid situations in which a transport unit was split into multiple tiny parts to drop a single squad here, there and everywhere. So, we agreed that so long as a FULL transport unit was used for the drop then the drop was kosher ( hence the inclusion of the "entire air transport unit" section of the rule ). I can confirm that in the case of each of the subsidiary drops ( Naga, Port Blair etc ) that my force was carried by a full squadron of at least twelve planes, completely in compliance with the rules.

I admit that I was/am confused as well... The rule was

17. Sub/para drops only on dot beach/base hexes are allowed provided the entire LCU/air transport unit participates. Drops of only a few squads, or outside of dot beach/base hexes are not permitted.

Actually, my feeling -without any knowledge about any previous discussion- was that this is a rule that is supposed to force you to commit your units. If you truly want to know what units are located on a base or if you truly believe there are no defenders, the price you eventually pay is that precious para unit. You guess wrong - it is gone.

In the starting position, where you might know which enemy units are at which position, this might limit the possibilities to exploit this knowledge (though it would be even more fun if the players could redistribute their order of battle at the beginning of turn 1 imho anyway).

I migth have been wrong, but that's the thoughts which came to my mind when I read it - maybe because I would like that type of rule. Now that I read your interpretation I realize that impression may have been wrong.

The relevant question may be how to read the "/". If your rule reads

17a Sub drops only on dot beach hexes are allowed provided the entire LCU transport unit participates.

17b Para drops only on base hexes are allowed provided an entire air transport unit participates.

You are probably fine, even though "drops of only a few squads" may seem to point towards a different interpretation, because even a complete air transport unit just drops a few squads.

If you don't read it that way but use the / as "or", leaving the possibility of free combination of the alternatives, how would you interpret the rule relating to subs ? If you fill up the sub with troops, it is legitimate to land at any dot beach or base as well ? Would that interpretation of the rule still make it a rule in the sense that it is limiting ?

In any case, I believe there is no real reason for a rerun (mainly because I want to see this interesting game proceed - thanks to both of you and all advisors !), specifically as I think Nemo's offers for compensation are generous. Still, I believe that 1eyedjack's questions were justified and clarification of the rule is/was important.

Just my humble opinions...

Hartwig