PBEM security easy to defeat?

[Jonathan Pollard]

Does the game have the same PBEM security system as Gary Grigsby's World at War? If so, I doubt I'll buy the game, because it's very easy to defeat. All you need to do is prior to downloading your turn file make a backup copy of the folder where the save file goes and also a backup copy of the folder where the file that keeps track of the reloads goes, and if you don't like the results of your turn, simply replace the folders so that your game returns to the way it was prior to downloading your turn and redownload your turn. The game will then be fooled into thinking you are downloading your turn for the first time.

[GShock]

Johnatan despite all efforts, there's no cheat-safe game in the world.

Play some PB equipped FPS server and you'll see lots of aimbotters around. Playing PBEM is about an implicit trust on your opponent and it's the same your opponent has in you. If you think your opponent is cheating and bypassing security checks, you can find another one...there's plenty and luckily cheaters are just a minority...this is also true for all games, luckily [:)]

[Jonathan Pollard]

From what I remember, War in the Pacific has decent PBEM security, although you could cheat the air unit transfer attrition system by redoing an air transfer if you thought it had too much attrition.

[PyleDriver]

Your right Gab, if a guy looks for a way to cheat (like Johnathan) he's not a guy I would want to play anyway...

[8D]
Jon

[Erik Rutins]

Jonathan,

Yes, it's possible to foil any PBEM security system. WITP was quite possible to foil as well. Ultimately, good play overcomes any kind of "replay cheating" even if your opponent is so lame as to try it. The vast, vast, vast majority of my PBEM experiences have been excellent and involved no evidence of untrustworthiness by my opponents at all.

By the way, please remove the link to the 9/11 conspiracy site in your signature. No politics allowed on this forum.

Regards,

- Erik

[GShock]

Cheat-free world doesn't exist and can't exist in games but perhaps Jonathan has been burned by a cheater and that's how he came to find the how to... It happens. Happened to me in AACW too but happens regularly to everyone in FPS games. I've been a cheaterbuster for almost 10 years at AASA and ACI for America's Army Ops game. There's no system that works 100% in no game i know of. And i know quite many, too many probably.

In FPS you can trust the admin of a server more than Punkbuster itself but in PBEM there's no system at all to protect the honest player...in no game.

Since there's no game that solved this issue (but i would appreciate if Jonathan could point one if he found it or if he could point the DEVs towards a solution rather than an empty critic) i think you have 2 options:

1) Don't play PBEM
2) Accept that in the moment your opponent has cheated, HE is the loser and you get an instant victory which also means a new opponent.

[8D]

[Pford]

ORIGINAL: GShock

Happened to me in AACW too but happens regularly to everyone in FPS games.

Really, in AACW? That's a WEGO game, like Combat Mission. Don't see how it's possible to cheat in that format.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Pford
Really, in AACW? That's a WEGO game, like Combat Mission. Don't see how it's possible to cheat in that format.

It's very possible to cheat in WEGO games, since someone has to run the actual execution.

[JanSorensen]

Out of curiosity. Erik, have you (Matrix) ever considered making a dice server that all your games could use automatically? That would infact make it possible to remove most forms of cheating.
 
It would also be possible to disable (battle) cheating in WBTS without a server - but it would make PBEM require roughly twice the mails.
A) Union player makes all moves - mail is sent
B) Confed player makes all reaction moves - mail is sent
now all decisions are made and its time to watch the effect.
C) Union player watches the battles. Reloading does not change anything (dice are predetermined) Mail sent.
D) Confed player watches battles - and then starts to make his moves (so we are back to A).
 
So, its possible to make the game secure against reloading - but it would make it take twice as long.

[GShock]

...not to mention the non-host player in AACW has no replay. U do realize there's a cheat involved when u see everything went upside down in the turn, generals u sent somewhere, went into other emispheres for example...moves that could be countered only by 100% intelligence are d'oh, just countered with full strenght...all the bluff moves are systematically seen...and so on.

No evidence, as in 99.9999999% of cheating but without any allegation the answer is simple: Hey i can't play anymore, sorry. GG.
[:)]

[beevor_fan]

The dice server idea would be pretty cool. Together with some in-game integration, it could make PBEM a much slicker and more reliable affair. As always, money is the problem  

[GShock]

I think this is a good point. The Matrix has published so many games i already more than once invited them to host a battle/transfer server but this also means future DEVs got to plan this move in accordance with the Matrix. The best achievement such servers (with their relative browsers) would be that you could see the players online and the matches being hosted and jump in any time.

I was thinking about something like Steam.

Eric?

[Berkut]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Pford
Really, in AACW? That's a WEGO game, like Combat Mission. Don't see how it's possible to cheat in that format.

It's very possible to cheat in WEGO games, since someone has to run the actual execution.

Then the key is to not allow the player running the execution to see the result first. As Combat Mission does.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Berkut
Then the key is to not allow the player running the execution to see the result first. As Combat Mission does.

It's quite possible to cheat in Combat Mission PBEM as well.

Folks, worrying about cheating in PBEMs is like some mainstream publishers worrying about piracy. Cheaters are out there, as are software pirates. There's no foolproof PBEM security, just like there's no foolproof copy protection. I advise to stop worrying about it and focus on using your judgement - if you find a good opponent, which the vast majority are, stick with him and enjoy the games. If you think someone's cheating, write them off and move on, they're the losers.

Regards,

- Erk

[Berkut]

I agree with you Erik on teh absic strategy.

However, it is worth the trouble to make it harder, to discourage "casual" cheating. Human beings are weird - our morality and ethics are often subject to rather curious constraints, one of which is how much trouble it is to cheat.

I do in fact have a couple of PBEM opponents who I simply trust completely. The main reason I want cheating to be hard is that it allows me to not worry about whether an unusual result that favors me will be suspected of cheating.

I play a lot of board wargames via ACTS, and I love that when I roll a 6,1 result in a 6L against 6L attack in Paths of Glory, I don't have to worry about whether my opponent thinks I am cheating. Especially when it happens a couple of times in a row!

[GShock]

While i was backing up the newly reformatted and restored system i played a Backgammon on internet XP game. My opponent rolled 3 times in a row double 6 but couldn't get out of the box because the slot was occupied by 2 of my tokens. [:D]

Seriously, it's a matter of statistics. A guy can cheat a whole game and will have you suspecting him, if you don't beat him in the rematch and you still suspect him then just move on. Common sense and judgement are better even than Punkbuster...really.