Corsair performance?

[daveja vu]

Were the Corsairs as historically effective against Japanese fighters as the game depicts? It seems that in the game, Corsairs (and Hellcats, to a slightly lesser extent) absolutely rule the sky over Japanese fighters. And even though the Corsair historically was a large, fast, high performance fighter with marked superiority over Japanese models, I've always believed it was a tricky plane to fly which took skill and experience for a pilot to be able to maximize it's strong points vs. determined fighter opposition. At one point it was known as the "Ensign Eliminator" due to the number of fatal accidents by inexperienced flier. And it took time for the pilots to become proficient enough with their machines to best the Japanese.

[tocaff]

The Corsair was a deadly beast in the right hands and the Hellcats downed more Japanese planes than any other US fighter.  The Japanese designs were made obsolete by new US designs and their pilot training (poor) sent green replacements to the front as canon fodder.

[SuluSea]

I assumed the Corsair had a better record but a 11-1 kill ratio was still very ,very good. It could outclimb, out dive and out turn the A6m as long as it stayed out of the low speed turning fight they had their lunch. The Corsair with it's huge Pratt and Whitney engine could take serious damage and still make it home. It had a long and distinguished record and for me is one of the great fighter designs of all time.

[Ike99]

Were the Corsairs as historically effective against Japanese fighters as the game depicts? It seems that in the game, Corsairs (and Hellcats, to a slightly lesser extent) absolutely rule the sky over Japanese fighters.

Yes, I think it´s pretty close. Corsair and Hellcats did rule the sky beyond question. These planes are just too fast with too much horsepower to weight for the Japanese fighters to do much with.

[Hornblower]

On a kill ratio the  Hellcats were the best, but personally the corsair was better.. reason why they were in production into the korean war..

[decaro]

Actually the Corsair outlived its contemporaries because, unlike the Thunderbolt or Mustang, it was a carrier capable fighter-bomber, which came in handy off the Korean penninsula.

But look at these ridiculous combat air results from my game w/Todd:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/20/43

Weather: Rain

... Air attack on TF, near Tulagi at 38,39

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 23
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 31
Ki-49 Helen x 6

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero x 4 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 9 destroyed
Ki-49 Helen x 2 destroyed
Ki-49 Helen x 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1 Corsair x 1 damaged

1LT I.Hickman of VMF-121 is credited with kill number 8

COL D.Nishihata of 1st Sentai bails out and is CAPTURED

... Air attack on TF, near Tulagi at 38,39

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 18
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 19
Ki-49 Helen x 5

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 3 destroyed
Ki-49 Helen x 1 destroyed


CPT K. Walsh of VMF-121 is credited with kill number 5


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Tulagi at 38,39

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5
G4M1 Betty x 6

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty x 2 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Counting only the fighters, the IJN's first sortie had 5:1 odds vs. a handful of Corsairs, and then 4:1, and look at the ridiculous results; the last sortie just added insult to injury, and the IJ pilots were not novices, either.

Apparently I was up against TV's Robert Conrad and his "Black Sheep" squadron; this is worse than a Western when a cowboy fires his six-shooter once and then 6 Indians go down in the dirt!

[SuluSea]

Corsair pilots were good but those numbers considering the escorts are extreme. [:D]

[RGIJN]

You think this is extreme? I can contribute more of this ridicoulous stuff. Real after action reports from my PBEM with Ken. Real pain as you can imagine

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/22/43

Air attack on TF at 43,43

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27
D4Y Judy x 3
B5N Kate x 14
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 6
Ki-48 Lily x 9

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 6
P-38G Lightning x 28

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 23 destroyed
D4Y Judy x 3 destroyed
B5N Kate x 12 destroyed
B5N Kate x 3 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 2 destroyed
Ki-48 Lily x 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38G Lightning x 1 destroyed
P-38G Lightning x 1 damaged

1LT A. Jensen of VMF-214 is credited with kill number 13

Allied Ships
BB Indiana, Bomb hits 1
CL St. Louis


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 43,43

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 54
A6M3 Zero x 32
D4Y Judy x 11
B5N Kate x 26
Ki-45 KAIb Nick x 21
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 10
Ki-48 Lily x 6

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 3
P-38G Lightning x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 27 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 16 destroyed
D4Y Judy x 1 destroyed
D4Y Judy x 3 damaged
B5N Kate x 6 destroyed
B5N Kate x 17 damaged
Ki-45 KAIb Nick x 2 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIb Nick x 7 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 6 destroyed
Ki-48 Lily x 1 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1 Corsair x 1 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair x 1 damaged
P-38G Lightning x 15 destroyed
P-38G Lightning x 7 damaged

1LT A. Jensen of VMF-214 is credited with kill number 15

MAJ F. Tomkins of 432nd FS bails out and is CAPTURED

Allied Ships
DD Warramunga, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL St. Louis, Torpedo hits 1
CL Honolulu, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
BB Washington
BB Indiana
DMS Zane, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x Ki-48 Lily at 6000 feet
2 x Ki-48 Lily at 6000 feet

Though the Lightnings joined the slaughter, the Corsairs did the main job.
Look what THREE of them can kill!

[RGIJN]

another one... 133 (!) escorts died like flies against 24 CAP fighters. Despite I am well aware of the true capabilities of the allied fighters this seems indeed a bit unrealistic. Sheer numbers should have made some impact in this particular dogfight too as I suppose. Or am I wrong?? [&:]


Air attack on TF, near Nevea at 50,43

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 88
A6M3 Zero x 20
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 25
Ki-21 Sally x 15

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 10
P-38G Lightning x 14


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 35 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 3 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 6 destroyed
Ki-21 Sally x 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-38G Lightning x 2 destroyed
P-38G Lightning x 2 damaged

2LT K. Walsh of VMF-121 is credited with kill number 8

LCDR P.Kawamura of EI-1 Daitai is KILLED

[tocaff]

The Corsair pilots in question were good, well rested, had high morale and were on steroids.  The amount of kills could only be attributed to 1 of 2 things:
The game code highly over rates the Corsair.
The Japanese pilots ran themselves into the ground trying to escape.

I'll opt for door #1. 

The combat, while great for me as my P-38s were no where to be found, was ridiculous.

[Stele]

What about altitude? Altitude should be taken into consideration. If high enough, the Corsair can maintain a good level of energy over the Zekes for numerous passes especially at high altitudes.

A few times I've had my Corsairs at a low altitude, because I simply forgot to set them at a high altitude, and they came out either damaged or destroyed.

[ILCK]

The actual kill ratio for the F4U was 11:1 and the Hellcat was 19:1 so you are looking at HUGE differences in effectiveness BUT a lot of those ratios were built in 44-45 when the Japs were tossing up pilots who were lunchmeat. I'd think the ratios would be lower in 43 but still you'll get some horrible kill figures.

[borner]

yes, the F4U was good, but much of that was due not only to the quality of the plane against tha tof the zero, but also how poor Japan's pilotswere becomming. In the game, that does not seem to matter. The B-17 has the nickname of a superweapon in this game, but the true killer is the F4U

[DrewGator]

ORIGINAL: RGIJN
1LT A. Jensen of VMF-214 is credited with kill number 13
1LT A. Jensen of VMF-214 is credited with kill number 15

It looks like you actually did run into Pappy Boyington's Blacksheep squadron (VMF-214)!

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: _Stele

What about altitude? Altitude should be taken into consideration. If high enough, the Corsair can maintain a good level of energy over the Zekes for numerous passes especially at high altitudes ...

I seem to recall that escorts would fly an altitude just above the bombers they escorted, and my bombers w/their torps were set at 6,000; so I bumped them all up to 11,000, the bombers then dropped to 200 ft to release their fish while my escort fighters did much better, i.e., they held their own.

Apparently any appreciable altitude disadvantage against a Corsair is deadly for IJ.

[Ike99]

What about altitude? Altitude should be taken into consideration. If high enough, the Corsair can maintain a good level of energy over the Zekes for numerous passes especially at high altitudes.

A few times I've had my Corsairs at a low altitude, because I simply forgot to set them at a high altitude, and they came out either damaged or destroyed.

I would also ask what the Japanese pilots squadrons experience were in the fights. There are many variables that can come into this. It not enough to list a loss rate.

Because historic the Japanese had used up their elite pilots by 44´ and then suffered huge losses doesn´t mean a Japanese game player can´t run through his elite pilots in the game by mid 43´ or even earlier and suffer horrendous losses in the time frame of UV.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Ike99
Because historic the Japanese had used up their elite pilots by 44´ and then suffered huge losses doesn´t mean a Japanese game player can´t run through his elite pilots in the game by mid 43´ or even earlier and suffer horrendous losses in the time frame of UV.

Well said.

The problem is, though, that UV is very poor at modeling so many things that it all becomes ridiculous. In the early going, Zeroes are too good (as are Oscar Is, for that matter). F4Fs are grossly under-valued. P-40s and P-39Ds are useless in air superiority roles. Corsairs are so good, it's silly, but look at the numbers of aircraft on both sides that can fly missions - and coordinated missions, at that. A couple of hundred B-17s and B-24s escorted by dozens and dozens of fighters originating from two or three different bases? Please. 80 Bettys and 120 Zeros all together in one strike ... 450 planes based at - and effectively supported from - one South Pacific airfield in 1942? Come, now.

It's not just aircraft values. Too many aircraft can fly too many missions in too great numbers in too short a time. The first time 100+ Zeroes showed up over Port Moresby flying escort for 12 Bettys, I said, "You've got to be sh1tting me." This game has sh1tted me so many times, I probably overflowed at least half a dozen sewage treatment plants by now.

But, don't get me started. B-17s flying anti-shipping missions and hitting anything other than water? No B-17 replacements until September 1, 1942? Fix the "uber" bombing by screwing B-17s and B-24s out of 1/3 to 2/5 of their bomb load (instead of addressing the real problem)?

I hope for better - much better - from Carrier Force.

I ain't holding my breath. Gimme a good editor, at least. That thing in UV is worthless.

[Ike99]

... 450 planes based at - and effectively supported from - one South Pacific airfield in 1942? Come, now.

Yeah, there needs to be basing restrictions on the numbers of aircraft for airfields determined by base size, not just bombing penalties from operating heavy bombers at small airstrips. Can anyone see 125 B-17s based at say...Tulagi? Or any other unsuitable location.

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... 450 planes based at - and effectively supported from - one South Pacific airfield in 1942? Come, now.

Yeah, there needs to be basing restrictions on the numbers of aircraft for airfields determined by base size, not just bombing penalties from operating heavy bombers at small airstrips. Can anyone see 125 B-17s based at say...Tulagi? Or any other unsuitable location.

If we can night bomb why not stage this many bombers...what isn't it "historically accurate"?

[DEB]

This subject raises many matters that would be "gamey" if done by a player, yet these are down to the AI choices.
( One wonders why with all these problems, people still get annoyed and complain over "gamey" tactics used by players. I guess it's human nature to gripe, particularly to an individual if given the chance, but the hypocracy is amazing. )
Anyway, what would help ( here as well as elsewhere ) is some input from a designer ( comments please Mr Billings ), to give us a better insight re the game design on the points raised.