A Great Game: Shame about the attitude

[Didz]

Having just read yet another legitimate issue slapped down by a Matrix employee I have to say that whilst UV is a great game the attitude of some of the Matrix staff on this forum leaves a lot to be desired.

I have lost track of the number of times a legitimate question or issue has been smacked down by a response of:

Read the Manual.
or
Thats because you don't understand the game.
or
Thats what really happened historically.

There is an element of arrogance about this that really irritates me.

Quite apart from the concept of 'the customers always right' which I do accept is not always the case. There are undoubtedly customers on this forum who have a great deal more knowledge of the history of this campaign than the game designers [myself excluded]. There may even be a few people who were actually there.

The other thing that shocked me was when I discovered that some of these responses were not only incorrect but were deliberately incorrect and intended merely to shut people up or worse to score points rather than deal with the issue.

I can understand why having your baby criticised by ungrateful punters can wrankle and put you on the defensive. But whilst this is a great game it does have a few issues that need to be addressed and treating your customers like ungrateful children doesn't do it, or, you any credit.

I am not an expert on WWII naval warfare and so I have tended to fight shy of locking swords with the designers of this game on historical issues but if this was a Napoleonic Game set in 1815 and someone tried to lecture me on history (as has happened in the past) I would tear them to shreds.

In closing I would like to specifically thank Mike Wood for his consistently courteous, diplomatic and accurate responses.

[elmo3]

OTOH I think the support by 2by3 and Matirx has been outstanding. They have been especially good at handling the few who keep hammering on a couple of issues apparently hoping the volume of repetitive posts will somehow convince the designers to change the game design to suit them.

[Philbill1]

That the customer is always right is a good starting point.

However,how many companies offer the same level of service and support on a product as Matrix? There must be hundreds of different people posting on this forum all with different ideas/criticisms/suggestions which would make it difficult to please all or indeed give the right response all of the time. The fact that Matrix DO GIVE GREAT SUPPORT is something to be appreciated and admired IMHO. And just as importantly their responses are designed to help.Often an administrator of a forum can feel like they are constantly repeating themselves because people only read some of the posts which takes a degree of control not to display irritation.
Remember even Matrix staff are human afterall;)
This is a great game with great support. indeed the only danger facing Matrix is the number of divorces brought about by UV.
My wife says in 15 years she has never seen me play a game so much and believe me I have played all the wargames going back to the ZX Spectrum.I think that says it all:D
Phil

[Didz]

Originally posted by elmo3
OTOH I think the support by 2by3 and Matirx has been outstanding. They have been especially good at handling the few who keep hammering on a couple of issues apparently hoping the volume of repetitive posts will somehow convince the designers to change the game design to suit them.

OTOOH. As one of those guilty of having to hammer the same point repeatedly I would have to point out that I have found this necessary in order to breach the initial defensive attitude.

On the couple of occasions when Mike has responded you will notice that the issues are closed pretty quickly.

[IMJennifer]

Originally posted by elmo3
OTOH I think the support by 2by3 and Matirx has been outstanding. They have been especially good at handling the few who keep hammering on a couple of issues apparently hoping the volume of repetitive posts will somehow convince the designers to change the game design to suit them.

Absolutely!

[1] This is an unusually complex game and you HAVE TO READ THE MANUAL. I believe Matrix has been very good at clarifying ambiguities and seeming inconsistencies, but they shouldn't be expected to restate what is clearly laid out in the manual. I feel Matrix has exhibited an unusual degree of patience and tact.

[2] "That's the way it was historically" seems to be right on. Making no claims to be an expert, I've read enough of the primary sources to agree with them on all the issues I've seen. It would be too bad if changes were made in the game to suit some people's ideas of what was possible in 1942-43 at the expense of what seems a faithful attempt at historical reality. I should add that you play as the commander of a small, albeit important, area of a much larger theater in an even larger war effort. Decisions made in Washington and at Pearl regarding, for example, mine warfare resources may be frustrating but they are historical reality. By the way, people who find these external decision frustrating as the Allies should read some of the excellent histories of the Japanese high command -- a decision making process that borders on the surreal.

[Didz]

Originally posted by Philbill1

My wife says in 15 years she has never seen me play a game so much and believe me I have played all the wargames going back to the ZX Spectrum.I think that says it all:D
Phil

Sorry! can't respond to this at the minute. My girlfriends coming round for lunch in half and hour and I must just get some more supplies through to Rennel before she arrives.

Hmm! perhaps I should shave and get dressed too:D

Nah!

[Spooky]

Originally posted by Didz
Having just read yet another legitimate issue slapped down by a Matrix employee I have to say that whilst UV is a great game the attitude of some of the Matrix staff on this forum leaves a lot to be desired.

I have lost track of the number of times a legitimate question or issue has been smacked down by a response of:

Read the Manual.
or
Thats because you don't understand the game.
or
Thats what really happened historically.

There is an element of arrogance about this that really irritates me.

Didz

Your gameplay inputs & proposals are always very pertinent ... even if I do not agree with some of them

However, please take a look at some other editor's forums before attacking Matrix's staff. I have never seen a forum with so much inputs from the editor/developper !

So I would like to thank Matrix/2by3 for an outstanding support of the UV community

[Didz]

Originally posted by Spooky


Didz

Your gameplay inputs & proposals are always very pertinent ... even if I do not agree with some of them

However, please take a look at some other editor's forums before attacking Matrix's staff. I have never seen a forum with so much inputs from the editor/developper !

So I would like to thank Matrix/2by3 for an outstanding support of the UV community

Yes! I'm sorry if I my initial posting gave the impression that I was disatisfied with the level of input from Matrix staff. As you say the level of input has been commendable.

The point I was tryng to make was that:

Just as UV is a great game with a few issues that need to be addressed. So too the input from Matrix staff has been excellent but needs to be a little more open and diplomatic in its content at times.

Likewise, I would like to add that my only motivation in raising any of these issues is a desire to improve what is already above average and not to detract from what is already a great game and an excellent service.

[Phew! that burned out a few brain cells, whats the betting as soon as I push the submit button I'll think of a better way of putting it.]

[vils]

Originally posted by Spooky


I have never seen a forum with so much inputs from the editor/developper !

So I would like to thank Matrix/2by3 for an outstanding support of the UV community

Well, take a look at Cyanide, the creators of Cycling-manager. They have the world record of participating support. That will be very hard to beat, as they released new patches as soon as anyone gnagged..

Also, they asked us what we would like and the implemented it within days..

[Spooky]

Originally posted by vils


Well, take a look at Cyanide, the creators of Cycling-manager. They have the world record of participating support. That will be very hard to beat, as they released new patches as soon as anyone gnagged..

Also, they asked us what we would like and the implemented it within days..

Sorry, I do not know Cycling-Manager or Cyanide

However, I do believe that the posts from Didz, Dgaad, Hartmann, juliet7bravo ... and many other UV players give to the Matrix/2by3 team some very good ideas & suggestions in order to improve UV ... and WITP

Companies often use some focus groups in order to improve products - in a way, this forum is probably the best focus group Matrix/2by3 could have dreamed of

I am quite confident that Mike is now trying to implement as much as possible of these improvements in the next UV patches ... and in the future WIP !

Spooky

[WW2'er]

Didz,

Really try to take a minute and put yourself in Matrix's shoes..........................................................................

You regularly put in 50-70+ hour work weeks for a game with no guarantee that you will see a return for your efforts (Let alone a healthy return). You go the extra mile by asking for input, responding on the forums and dealing with the occasional troublemakers. You do your best to balance your own wants, the designers plan, the customers' wishes, your knowledge of history, the programmer's lack of sleep, and the time and money available until release. Finnally, all the million and two details are completed and the game is out and finally returning some money! Now you still handle the trouble tickets and legitimate bugs and get ready for the patch. But what really gets to you? What just drives you nuts?.......It's the posters that "complain" by crying "FOUL!!!" as loud as they can without reading the manual or doing a search of the message board to learn about their "issue". The other thing that drives you insane is the few people who take issue with a minor part of the game and claim that the game is terribly inbalanced or "unplayable" as it is because this minute detail or game option isn't handled to their liking! Not only that, but they plaster it again and again on the message board so that new people think that there is this HUGE issue with the game and won't want to buy it!

Given this, I think the Matrix staff has been incredibly accomodating! Sometimes they do get a little gruff. David has even admitted that the "tone" of the question can sometimes dictate the response. In a perfect world, we would all respond with dignity and grace, but a perfect world this is NOT.

I try to remember that I will never like everything about any game. Until I am willing to give 110% of my effort, time, creativity and money to create a war game, I will not have the right to make all the decisions the way I think they should be made. "You can't please everyone all the time." Given all they have gone through to give us an excellent game, I applaud and salute the Matrix staff and am willing to cut them a little slack when they can get a little "snippy".

[Beckles]

Originally posted by Didz
There are undoubtedly customers on this forum who have a great deal more knowledge of the history of this campaign than the game designers [myself excluded].

So you think there are folks here on the forum who know more about the campaign than Gary Grigsby (who has pretty much made a career out of designing historical wargames covering the WWII Pacific conflict)? I certainly wouldn't go out on that limb with you saying that about the "game designers" ...

That being said, even if someone in the forums is more knowledgable on stcitly the history, I'd have a hard time believing anyone in this forum is more knowlegable about what it takes to produce a computer wargame modeling the Pacific conflict as accurately as possible, given that sacrifices have to be made at some point in any wargame.

[Chiteng]

Matrix isnt say Verant. Its just a few guys that like wargames.
You cant expect the same treatment. Its silly.

[Erik Rutins]

Didz,

We certainly welcome criticism and we try to do the best job we can to support our customers. While we're not a big outfit, the feedback we've gotten from most folks tells us that the quality of our support is generally considered quite high relative to most gaming companies.

I request that you elaborate on a few points below to hopefully make this criticism more constructive. While I respect that you feel the way you do, I haven't seen the same things you mention, so a bit more specificity would definitely help.

I should also note that from time to time one of us has been a bit more brusque than we should have been. For that I apologize. Like the pilots in UV, we need occasional rotation to reduce our fatigue or the chance of us crashing increases significantly.

Having just read yet another legitimate issue slapped down by a Matrix employee I have to say that whilst UV is a great game the attitude of some of the Matrix staff on this forum leaves a lot to be desired.

If you could describe a slap-down, it would be appreciated. As far as I've seen, we've been responding to all legitimate issues with fairness.

Read the Manual. Thats because you don't understand the game. Thats what really happened historically. There is an element of arrogance about this that really irritates me.

Now, if our entire reply consisted of RTFM, I could see your point. However, the vast majority of replies I've seen from Matrix Staff consist of an attempt to give constructive advice to the customer. At times, we also remind the customer that the information is in the manual.

Pointing out historical examples is also a valid non-smackdown response and practiced by many gamers in this forum as well. If we have a historical justification for a design decision, why would we not mention it?

All in all, the tone I see you repeating above and describing as irritating is one that I have not seen Matrix folks use. If I'm mistaken or if I'm blind, please give me some examples.

The other thing that shocked me was when I discovered that some of these responses were not only incorrect but were deliberately incorrect and intended merely to shut people up or worse to score points rather than deal with the issue.

Explain this statement, please. I am not aware of anyone "shutting people up" and ignoring real issues. The standard MO if someone brings up a valid bug or design question is to discuss it here first based on our understanding of the point through the development stage. If we are swayed by the discussion here, we discuss it in private and in the development forum. If an agreement is reached on a change, we add it to the patch request list. I don't see anything going on there except customer service.

In closing I would like to specifically thank Mike Wood for his consistently courteous, diplomatic and accurate responses.

We're always grateful when Mike posts since he's so deeply involved in the game programming. He often knows answers the rest of us will never know. However, he is also in charge of the patch programming and we have to keep him away from the boards if we ever want that to be finished! Nevertheless, I agree that Mike is a true gentleman (or at least hasn't hit high fatigue yet ).

Regards,

- Erik

[Didz]

You regularly put in 50-70+ hour work weeks for a game with no guarantee that you will see a return for your efforts (Let alone a healthy return). You go the extra mile by asking for input, responding on the forums and dealing with the occasional troublemakers. You do your best to balance your own wants, the designers plan, the customers' wishes, your knowledge of history, the programmer's lack of sleep, and the time and money available until release. Finally, all the million and two details are completed and the game is out and finally returning some money! Now you still handle the trouble tickets and legitimate bugs and get ready for the patch. But what really gets to you? What just drives you nuts?.......It's the posters that "complain" by crying "FOUL!!!" as loud as they can without reading the manual or doing a search of the message board to learn about their "issue".

I think I appreciate this more than some as I am in a similar industry albeit on the commercial side of the fence. The point that’s missing here is that by implication the mere existence of this forum is a invitation for feedback from the customer base and whilst the design team will obviously be happy to receive pats on the back for a job well done the ultimate value on such a forum is to get back a critical appraisal of the product and gather additional customer requirements.

This is all very positive stuff and the fact that Matrix are doing so is a credit to them. However, it can be undermined if in the process of gathering this information you alienate your customer base.

The other thing that drives you insane is the few people who take issue with a minor part of the game and claim that the game is terribly inbalanced or "unplayable" as it is because this minute detail or game option isn't handled to their liking! Not only that, but they plaster it again and again on the message board so that new people think that there is this HUGE issue with the game and won't want to buy it!

As far as I am aware nobody on this forum certain not moi! has ever suggested that this game is either 'terribly inbalanced' or 'unplayable'. Certainly the issues of Turn Duration, TF Interdiction, Mine Warfare etc. are ones that need to be addressed to improve gameplay but the game is still perfectly playable and enjoyable in its current state.

I agree that because of the response when some of these issues were first raised, some people (myself included) have had to be quite assertive and persistent in order to get an acceptance that the problem we have identified is real and needs to be treated seriously. And I am equally concerned that as a result some of these issues have taken on the appearance of being far greater in importance than they really are.

Unfortunately, I like many others on this forum I don't take kindly to be patronised and told that the issue I have raised is only a problem because a) we haven't read the manual, b) we don't know how to play the game, or c) we don't understand the history. I'm afraid my natural reaction to this sort of answer is to keep coming back again and again until I get a more acceptable response rather than slinking off with my tail between my legs. I apologise if this is annoying to you or other forum members but unfortunately it’s a 'life choice' we all have to make.

Given this, I think the Matrix staff has been incredibly accommodating! Sometimes they do get a little gruff. David has even admitted that the "tone" of the question can sometimes dictate the response. In a perfect world, we would all respond with dignity and grace, but a perfect world this is NOT.

I would agree that so far the debates on this forum whilst sometimes protracted and intense have been courteous and avoided degenerating into the 'flame wars' I have witnessed elsewhere and I think that is a credit to everyone.

I try to remember that I will never like everything about any game. Until I am willing to give 110% of my effort, time, creativity and money to create a war game,

I wish I could spend my time, creativity and had the money to create a wargame. Unfortunately, I have to spend mine on less inspiring projects though I frequently find the lessons learnt wargaming extremely valuable. E.g. Always protect your rear and if you hear something large and loud heading in your direction DUCK!

[Oleg Mastruko]

I can't believe this thread! Didz, what drugs have you been taking?

The only problem I see with this forum and Matrix responses is TOO MUCH democracy (OK, I say that jokingly, but only somewhat jokingly). Matrix employees showed, if anything, too much tolerance to various, often opposed ideas as to how their games should look like and how it all should be working.

Problem with niche market like wargames is that every player (or MOST of the players anyway) considers himself to be expert on the matter.

Geez... OK, so you think CV should be slower, or APs are too vulnerable or any other incredibly miniscule tidbit. Fine. So you voiced your opinion, and considering the fact that Matrix developers watch this forum closely, you may rest assured they saw your input. Now let them decide if that's worthy of being included in the game (patch or whatever) and go on with your life...

It's not like they consider their game to be perfect or anything - fer christs sake - the patch is in the works! So they DO support and improve this game as we speak, and whether they'll consider every tidbit as valuable and worthy of their consideration - I'm perfectly content to leave that matter to the developers.

I never saw more patient and understanding group of people than Matrix developers on this board. If it was me I'd be - with all due respect - swearing some of the more persistent and arrogant all "know all" posters left and right.

Oleg

[Joel Billings]

I just want to tip my cap to Erik, Paul, Mike, Marc, Rich and David (I hope I didn't miss anyone). IMHO they have done an amazing job trying to help people while tracking problems and suggestions. I spent months trying to learn the details of the game from Gary when working on documentation and during testing, and I don't pretend to know close to everything that is going on inside the guts of the game (let alone the things that aren't going as they are supposed to). There is no one place to easily look up how every detail of the game is supposed to operate (yes the code, but I said easy place), yet these guys try to make sense of UV and pass along what they've figured out and what they've learned from others. The players of UV have passed along a lot of great information, but as is usual in an open forum, there's a lot of work in figuring out what's truly useful and important information, and these guys have been burning the midnight oil doing that. They're hard work not only helps UV players and helps make UV better through patches, it frees up Gary, Keith and I to work on new products, and for that I'm grateful.

[jhdeerslayer]

This is a sweet game and support from staff is way above average in my opinion. I think the passions involved come from trying to take an already great game and tweaking it further.

I respect all who have a professionally delivered opinion but on the otherhand you will drive yourself crazy trying to please everybody and making this game/support levels everything to everybody. Will never happen!

Congrats on a fine game and on-going support efforts.

Now quit reading these forums and get that patch out!:eek:

[Reiryc]

Originally posted by WW2'er
Didz,

Really try to take a minute and put yourself in Matrix's shoes..........................................................................

You regularly put in 50-70+ hour work weeks for a game with no guarantee that you will see a return for your efforts (Let alone a healthy return). You go the extra mile by asking for input, responding on the forums and dealing with the occasional troublemakers. You do your best to balance your own wants, the designers plan, the customers' wishes, your knowledge of history, the programmer's lack of sleep, and the time and money available until release. Finnally, all the million and two details are completed and the game is out and finally returning some money! Now you still handle the trouble tickets and legitimate bugs and get ready for the patch. But what really gets to you? What just drives you nuts?.......It's the posters that "complain" by crying "FOUL!!!" as loud as they can without reading the manual or doing a search of the message board to learn about their "issue". The other thing that drives you insane is the few people who take issue with a minor part of the game and claim that the game is terribly inbalanced or "unplayable" as it is because this minute detail or game option isn't handled to their liking! Not only that, but they plaster it again and again on the message board so that new people think that there is this HUGE issue with the game and won't want to buy it!

Given this, I think the Matrix staff has been incredibly accomodating! Sometimes they do get a little gruff. David has even admitted that the "tone" of the question can sometimes dictate the response. In a perfect world, we would all respond with dignity and grace, but a perfect world this is NOT.

I try to remember that I will never like everything about any game. Until I am willing to give 110% of my effort, time, creativity and money to create a war game, I will not have the right to make all the decisions the way I think they should be made. "You can't please everyone all the time." Given all they have gone through to give us an excellent game, I applaud and salute the Matrix staff and am willing to cut them a little slack when they can get a little "snippy".

Very well said....

I get sick of the customer is always right attitude from the company's like walmart etc. My experience as being a customer and an owner of my own company is that the customer is almost never right. Unfortunately we have spawned an attitude that the expenditure of some money seems to have fostered a right to be lazy, annoying, and dishonest.

Reiryc

[Reiryc]

Certainly the issues of Turn Duration, TF Interdiction, Mine Warfare etc. are ones that need to be addressed to improve gameplay but the game is still perfectly playable and enjoyable in its current state.

Classic quote...

No, the game does not *certainly* need these things to be addressed to improve game play. If that is your opinion, I respect that, but to display such an opinion as a certainty is purely false.

There was a poll done on turn length being shortned...over 70% responded that the turn length is fine the way it is. So why in the world would something like this 'certainly' have to be something to be changed?

I'm afraid my natural reaction to this sort of answer is to keep coming back again and again until I get a more acceptable response rather than slinking off with my tail between my legs. I apologise if this is annoying to you or other forum members but unfortunately it’s a 'life choice' we all have to make.

If you make such a 'life choice' then be a responsible adult and accept the consequences of acting in such a manner. Coming back over and over with your opinion does nothing more than show that regardless of whether or not people agree with it, you are going to do your best to ram it down our throats in the form of a gameplay change. Personally I wish the game makers/producers would cut loose with how they really feel with people when they act like this.

Reiryc