unrealistic air combat...

[mdiehl]

If they were absent!

They were. The RF beacons on Japanese and US CVs were for return flight only, not for navigating your way to a target. That is because CVs moved around, so the radio transmitters were not fixed with respect to the target. The only way radio navigation in WW2 could be used to direct an attacker to a target at night was when both the RF beacon source and the target were fixed. Thus Bomber Command was able to direct bombers at land targets at night whereas the Japanese were unable to do so.

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

half of that being over the North Sea and parachuted within 10 miles of his objective without radio navigation?

I think that example illustrates very nicely why the Japanese did not attempt long range night raids against targets of any kind. I'd be impressed by such feats of dead reckoning if he'd landed within a kilometer of his objective. A 10 mile margin of error pretty much proves that a person working by dead reckoning would have a very difficult time hitting something the size of an airfield without radio navigation or lots of visual waypoints.

Thanks for the anedcote. You could not have undermined your own claim more effectively than you just did.

Excellent point and also what we have to understand is what those pictures. Show, flak firing at night? Sure. We all know about Washing Machine Machine Charlie. Did Americans shoot at him, yes. Did he cause damage...not really and that wasn't the intent.

Examples of "night raids" from a pilot on the Canal:

Friday 16 April
106th Day, 259 Days to come

Took off 0730 rendezvous with 18 SBDs and proceeded to Cactus via SCAT DC-3 Arrived 1130. Slept most of way. Saw the gang & got the word. Maj. Britt was killed in take off. Coffeen is missing & Spoide got the first Jap. The Squadron has been under fire but so far I haven't really missed much. Will write a letter tonight maybe. Air raid tonight. Dropped some bombs. Shrapnel & flak fell heavily. We sat it out in a foxhole (dugout) not much damage. Managed to write V.J. & mother.

Sunday 18 April
108th Day, 257 to come

Did nothing this AM. Stood by for alert from 0500. At 1500 went to Knucklehead patrol, up for 3 hrs. First hop in weeks. Tired me, but I learned the area. Can hardly sit down tonight, alert again tomorrow AM. Charley came over tonight in a big way. Raids at 1930, 2130, 2340, 0415, at 0415 night fighter got one. He went down in flames. Dropped lots of bombs, none too close to us. Only got in fox hole twice, both being 1930 raids. Came in from several directions. Not much damage done.

...again, can you fly to somewhere near a target and drop bombs. Yes. Can you effectively hit a target....no. That 33% hit rate is laughable.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Wouldn´t matter if he crashed nose first into a smoking hole in the ground. Still shows what can be done in night navigation without radio ...

It would have mattered if he was supposed to bomb something first; do you recall the original intent of this thread?

"he slams the PM airfield night by night with 300 or more kate/vals from his carriers..even through rain or thunderstorm. and the cap is simply ineffective against such raids. even with 50 FB flying night cap, the results of night CAP and operational loses are nearly zero for him.

from what we now, the japanese started only ONE major night attack from their carriers in 1942 in the battle of coral sea. this raid resulted in a disaster with 21 of 27 japanese planes lost."

[Ike99]

I think that example illustrates very nicely why the Japanese did not attempt long range night raids against targets of any kind. I'd be impressed by such feats of dead reckoning if he'd landed within a kilometer of his objective. A 10 mile margin of error pretty much proves that a person working by dead reckoning would have a very difficult time hitting something the size of an airfield without radio navigation or lots of visual waypoints.

What you wrote here proves you know nothing of flying or navigation. You´re completely ignorant of this subject matter. There´s no other way to put that.

Thanks for the anedcote. You could not have undermined your own claim more effectively than you just did.

Ahha...people with much greater understanding than you of the subject matter comprehend what I´m saying, or, at least know the Japanese could find, and bomb airfields at night.

Uncommon Valor Game Manual-(the Japanese were especially fond of night bombing missions)

[Ike99]

That 33% hit rate is laughable.

What would be even more laughable are the game reviews for CF if you had your way. A Japanese bomber hit percentage of 0-1% from 3,000ft.. provided they could even find the runway, hmmm 10% chance.

That´s what would be really funny.

[mdiehl]

What you wrote here proves you know nothing of flying or navigation.

Your claim is, as is your habit, incorrect and without foundation.

You´re completely ignorant of this subject matter.

It is more than evident to everyone here that you are the most ignorant person offering opinions about the feasibility of night bombing in these forums.

Ahha...people with much greater understanding than you of the subject matter comprehend what I´m saying, or, at least know the Japanese could find, and bomb airfields at night.

I'm still waiting for compelling evidence of same. Washing machine Charley didn't even manage to HIT Henderson field. On several occasions, WMCs ordnance fell inside Japanese lines. Beyond that, your desperation to cite strategically ineffective, wildly inaccurate, feeble efforts of a single two-place float plane with something like a compelling capability to launch night raids (vis the original point of this thread), MOST amusing. Do carry on though.

What would be even more laughable are the game reviews for CF if you had your way. A Japanese bomber hit percentage of 0-1% from 3,000ft.. provided they could even find the runway, hmmm 10% chance.

That´s what would be really funny.

Actually, that would likely exaggerate the accuracy of Japanese night bombing capability. It would, however, indeed be funny to see a well-modeled sim of Japanese night bombing made available, and then to watch someone expecting any results of consequence pull their hair out reading the AARs.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Uncommon Valor Game Manual-(the Japanese were especially fond of night bombing missions)

10.1 Air Sequence of Play
Air Operations happen twice a day - there are Night and Day air operations sequences with the Day sequence broken into morning, afternoon and air transport phases. The night sequence is briefer because less aerial activity occurred at night. Only air units that have been given “Night Operations” status will conduct operations during the night (the Japanese were especially fond of night bombing missions).

Notice there is nothing said re the effectivesness of night bombing, just that the Japanese had a habit of doing it.

This could simply be another example of the Japanese fondness for following battle plans to the letter, even if they didn't work. Shattered Sword described this as an "unhealthy rigidity" regarding the sanctity of their battle plans, i.e., Op MI (p. 411).

[tocaff]

Hey guys can we keep this thread going in a less hostile manner.  Most of us here in the forum would appreciate it.

Did the IJA or IJN ever do anything other than an occasional night air raid?  There was no night bombing campaign.  If the Japanese could have achieved good results and have had low loses wouldn't it have made sense that they would've done it more?  If you take the UV time frame and look at the fight for Guadalcanal then you'll see that bombs fell by day and the Tokyo Express delivered ordinance at night in the attempts to close Henderson Field.

It doesn't matter how much training is put into something if you don't do it.  To say that the Japanese were well schooled in night ops is one thing, but to say they could've done it doesn't demonstrate the ability.  They chose not to carry out the night ops for good reasons.  Ops loses would've been high and accuracy would've been low. 

You can go around and around on this subject, but history speaks louder than misguided opions. 

[barkhorn45]

I know it was'nt a bombing mission per se but were'nt a couple of peggy bomber's crash landed on the u.s.airfield on okinawa AT NIGHT from which suicidal japanese engineers proceeded to destroy a number of aircraft before they were killed?
{see i know how to make paragraphs}And these were IJAAF aircraft with no radar and no ground guidance as far as the info states sounds pretty pin-point to me but i could be wrong.

[barkhorn45]

"A former airline pilot, Hess was also an avid astrologer, so perhaps he was guided by the stars that night"
   the humor[don't ask why the writing looks like this can't figure out what i did to cause this effect]is interesting but the fact that a former ww1 pilot ,not an airline pilot,who had'nt flown in decades except for a few solo flights prior to his final flight could land within 14{actually}miles of his destination at night and at that distance is pretty impressive notwithstanding his politics

[decaro]

I could be wrong, but read that Hess was first in the artillery, and then later transfered to aviation in WW I; he was an airline pilot between the wars, but I wasn't able to confirm any of this.

Most of the info on Hess consisted of conspiracey theories re his flight, which was impressive considering that, for obvious reasons, he never filed a flight plan from Hanover to Scotland.

[barkhorn45]

Here's what i could find{not being at home} Rudolf Hess was born in 1894 in Alexandria, Egypt, the son of a German merchant. During the First World War he served in the German Army and was seriously injured at Verdun in August 1917. In the same year he got promoted to Lieutenant and voluteered for the flying corps
From autumn 1918 onwards he fought in the fighter squardon 35 at the western front. After the end of the war he became a volunteer in the "Freikorps von Epp", a right wing paramilitary formation during the Weimar Republic. In June 1920 he joined the NSDAP and took part in the unsuccessful coup de etat on 9th November 1923 in Munich, which had the aim to overthrow the Bavarian government. Together with Adolf Hitler he was imprisoned at Landsberg. On his release from prison he became Hitler's private secretary and accompanied him on most of his political travels throughout Germany. When the Nazis came into power, in 1933, he was elevated to the rank of a minister and became a member of Hitler's cabinet and at the same time became Hitler's dedicated deputy

[decaro]

Doesn't say much re Hess' aviation experience, but between the wars many German aircraft that were classified as civilian later became military models, and Hess' "airline" experience may have been in one of these paramilitary planes.

[barkhorn45]

it does'nt look like he had much time for flying anyway lets just leave it as a good display of dead reakoning on his part what ever his reasoning considering it was dark and he was flying a day fighter not set up for night flying and as you said he did'nt set up a flight plan.also i believe that willy messersmhmitt was somehow involved it helped lead to his eventual downfall.

[Ike99]

A 10 mile margin of error pretty much proves that a person working by dead reckoning would have a very difficult time hitting something the size of an airfield without radio navigation or lots of visual waypoints.

It is more than evident to everyone here that you are the most ignorant person offering opinions about the feasibility of night bombing in these forums.

Hess flew 900 miles, 4 hours and got within 10 miles of his objective. Now, understand this ...If Hess had been a Japanese navigator leading a flight of bombers to an airfield to bomb, he would not have used dead reakoning to bomb the airfield with.

He would have used dead reakoning to find the airfield. He would find the airfield using dead reackoning, not bomb it with dead reakoning.

The bombing of the airfield itself would be done by visual. Probably aided by ground lights (Search Lights, AA fire) and with the dropping of flares.

Can you understand this? I doubt it.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: barkhorn45

... he was flying a day fighter not set up for night flying and as you said he did'nt set up a flight plan.

The Bf 110 eventually became a very effective night fighter, but I don't know what configuration or variation Hess was flying that fateful night; perhaps a trip to the library is called for.

For the record, I didn't say Hess didn't have a flight plan, but he could never file it; despite his high position in the Nazi party, the tower at Hanover airfield would never have given Hess permission to fly to Scotland!

I wonder what excuse Hess gave to get off the ground that night: "Joy ride for the chief-of-staff" (Commander Eddington, "In Harm's Way)?

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... The bombing of the airfield itself would be done by visual. Probably aided by ground lights (Search Lights, AA fire) and with the dropping of flares.

Ike, are you assuming that the airfield would turn on it's lights and fire its AAA before the Japanese planes were overhead, giving them a beacon to their target?

This thread is turning into a debating club and not an intelligent discussion of UV air combat modeling.

[SuluSea]

I'm reading "Fleet Admiral, The Story Of William F. Halsey" and on page 50 from the "Fliers from Shangri-La" chapter it got me thinking about this thread. Obviously  noone is going to change their minds, no matter the information put forth but in a effort to humor some.

Night came on. Some of the B-25's found themselves still over the sea-but, their navigators questioned, what sea? Others were over land- but was it japan, Korea, or China? There were no lights, no cities to be seen, no landing fields. Below there was only stormy sea or desolate, craggy mountains. Some crews took a vote: Shall we bail out? Or stay with her till she goes coughing on the last cupful of gas?

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Deb

I've been upset by stuff and I get over it.  I try and keep things in their proper prospective.

It's perspective. And thats usually me too, but if someone have's a "go" then I'll "return fire". If you think anything that's been said has been over the top then you haven't seen me in full flow!

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Notice there is nothing said re the effectivesness of night bombing, just that the Japanese had a habit of doing it.

But some people here would have us believe that the Japs could not manage it at all, that's what we disagree with.