PT Boats

[Kingfisher]

Had a 10-PT boat TF stationed at Lunga. Date was around Mid-Oct '42. A Japanese TF of 5 destroyers enters the hex at night and a surface engagment commences. The result is 4 PT boats blown out of the water, none of the Japanese boats suffer damage. Fast forward 2 turns and another Japanese TF, this time around 6 ships, two of which are CLs, enters the hex. Same replay as before, 4 boats lost, no loss to the Japanese.

Is this typical? Will different tactics / deployments make PT boats more effective? I'm not expecting a 1:1 loss ratio everytime, but I would think they would have their advantages in the confined waters of the slot, especially at night against an opponent lacking radar.

[pasternakski]

They suck. You might as well send out plates of sushi in hope that the Japanese will eat themselves to death.

[ILCK]

Here's the matchup you want: PT Boat v. Barges

Anything else is useless.

[tocaff]

Not true!  Yes, PTs are great vs barges, but they can ruin the IJN's night and put a fish into a high value target.  You must realize that the USN operated PTs in groups of 3.  The detection level is probably lower and a few of these groups operating together have worked very well for me at times.  Even if the PTs just break up a bombardment or save the unloading transports because the IJN breaks off they've done the job, hits or not. 

A sunk PT gives the Japanese player 1 VP, so what's the worry?

[decaro]

Agreed, and Kingfisher can help himself by breaking his PTs into separate squadrons, which will make the computer make multiple die rolls. The more PT squads you have, the better the chance they won't all be surprised.

Also a good PT squadron commander helps -- you can manipulate this by the number of boats per PT squad -- and make sure to mine the harbor; an injured IJN ship can be a sitting duck for a PT's fish.

[tocaff]

Injured IJN vessels that can't get out of LBA range will get pounded in the morning if Allied air is present and set for naval attack.  Supplies and engineers are the key to fixing any bombardment damage done the night before by the IJN.  Mines and PTs are a good and cheap defense.
 
Actually bombardments are an irritant, but nothing to really worry about as it presents opportunities to engage and sink the enemy.

[Kingfisher]

ORIGINAL: tocaff
Even if the PTs just break up a bombardment or save the unloading transports because the IJN breaks off they've done the job, hits or not.

They may had broken up a night bombardment, but there is no way to be sure. In neither case did the Japanese bombard Lunga, so at first glance they appear to have saved Henderson field from a good schlacking. However, at the time the Japanese had a garrison at Koli Point, and the makeup of both Japanese TFs' points more towards fast transport rather than bombardment.

Would a convoy bound for Koli trigger a reaction from a Lunga based TF?

[tocaff]

If a TF, surface combat, is set for react to enemy then it's entirely possible that they will fight.  It's also possible that the enemy wasn't detected so nothing will happen.
 
Recon is hugely important in this game and it should be done in a manner not to tip your hand, if possible.  If I see you heading towards me for a day or 2 then you're in trouble upon arrival, if I have the assets in place.  At worst for me I can run away from you with vulnerable transports.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: ILCK

Here's the matchup you want: PT Boat v. Barges

Anything else is useless.

I've seen barges shoot up PT boats.

Besides, at one VP apiece, losing these things can get pretty expensive after awhile. Barges, as you know, are freebies.

I have tried to refine my use of PTs, without success. I still say that the remote chance they have of inflicting any damage is not enough to justify risking the losses they inevitably incur while putt-putt-putting around in areas thick with IJN destroyers.

[tocaff]

Wrong!  Ask JoeD, or better yet read our AAR (Long Road) and you'll see that any points I lost with PTs were more than made up for by their heroic actions of inflicting damage or sinking the enemy and saving my more valuable shipping.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Wrong!  Ask JoeD, or better yet read our AAR (Long Road) and you'll see that any points I lost with PTs were more than made up for by their heroic actions of inflicting damage or sinking the enemy and saving my more valuable shipping.

tocaff, please, it ain't a matter of "Wrong" complete with exclamation point, we're just expressing our personal experiences here.

Maybe your luck has been better than mine. Fine, congratulations, I hope you're living a happy, satisfying life.

I continue to use PTs with discretion for reasons already stated.

[tocaff]

pasternakski

You misinterpret my saying wrong and thanks for your well wishes.  [;)]

In my opinion, based on years of play, I think that the use of PTs can cause things to turn sour for the IJN.  If I were to lose 4 or 5 PTs and put a fish into a BB and the following AM my planes find and hit the same BB I would consider that great.  If it were to happen to a CA or CL that's good too.  Even sinking a DD would be fine.  Remember that in the game it's possible to thwart a TF from bombarding your base or even hitting shipping there.  Have you ever seen the movie "They Were Expendable"?  Well PTs are.

Again it's only my opinion from years of play.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: tocaff

pasternakski

You misinterpret my saying wrong and thanks for your well wishes.  [;)]

In my opinion, based on years of play, I think that the use of PTs can cause things to turn sour for the IJN.  If I were to lose 4 or 5 PTs and put a fish into a BB and the following AM my planes find and hit the same BB I would consider that great.  If it were to happen to a CA or CL that's good too.  Even sinking a DD would be fine.  Remember that in the game it's possible to thwart a TF from bombarding your base or even hitting shipping there.  Have you ever seen the movie "They Were Expendable"?  Well PTs are.

Again it's only my opinion from years of play.

I've been around for awhile myself, mon ami (six years on these forums, for example). My problem is that you can lose PT boats in bunches without accomplishing anything. Any kind of a hit seems to be a miracle worthy of a well-known French cavern.

As far as turning back bombardment TFs, when playing the Japanese and suspecting my decadent, imperialist yankee dog opponent of laying a trap for me, I send along a surface combat TF - if I expect PTs, it is a CL leading several DDs. Woe be it to the aspiring Jack Kennedy who steps off the curb in front of this Greyhound bus.

Bombardment TFs are notoriously bad in surface engagements. The Japanese seemed unable to learn the lesson from this in real life. I try not to repeat that error.

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Wrong!  Ask JoeD, or better yet read our AAR (Long Road) and you'll see that any points I lost with PTs were more than made up for by their heroic actions of inflicting damage or sinking the enemy and saving my more valuable shipping.

Do have some setting different then mine? I've used hundreds of PT boats and they are all nothing but lunch meat. I've yet to see them score any hits against IJN surface forces not called barges. I think they're useless but I still keep throwing their little plywood hulls into the fray hoping to score a magical torpedo hit on a cruiser or something.

[tocaff]

I can only go by what I've managed to accomplish with them.

I set PTs to squadrons (TFs) of 3 or 4 boats, set them to patrol, react and leave them docked.  If the IJN comes knocking they'll weigh anchor and do their best. 

Of course my opponents might or might not have a surface combat TF with the bombardment TF as only they can answer that one.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: tocaff

I can only go by what I've managed to accomplish with them.

I set PTs to squadrons (TFs) of 3 or 4 boats, set them to patrol, react and leave them docked.  If the IJN comes knocking they'll weigh anchor and do their best. 

If yer gonna use 'em, this is the way to do it.

Good luck. I use PTs only sparingly, but that's just me.

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: tocaff

I can only go by what I've managed to accomplish with them.

I set PTs to squadrons (TFs) of 3 or 4 boats, set them to patrol, react and leave them docked.  If the IJN comes knocking they'll weigh anchor and do their best. 

Of course my opponents might or might not have a surface combat TF with the bombardment TF as only they can answer that one.

Sounds like the way I use mine - if you don't they also chew up a ton of fuel - but I just do not score hits with them.

Then again, does anyone know the service record of the PT boats and any number of confirmed warship kills by the little boats?

[Kingfisher]

I found this web site:
http://www.ptboats.org/20-12-05-trivia-001.html

Doesn't provide a kill list, but I did find this tidbit interesting:

Out of 531 PTs placed in US Navy service, 69 were lost: 5 - destroyed by enemy surface ship gunfire;

So what took 4 years to occur I exceeded by almost 40% in two days. Yeah, somethings not right here.

[pasternakski]

Well, I think PT boats were applied pretty sparingly to combat situations in the historical reality (I love redundancies like that). Maybe they knew something we are trying really hard not to know...

[DEB]

I guess they don't have the same disregard for lives as us players!