Where is 1.03 Update

[marcbarker]

here is the d-day scenarios...there are 4 and they are huge

[marcbarker]

i have the four scenarios in a zip. too big for the forum email me and i will send them to you

[kg_1007]

I agree with barker, etc. We purchased a game. It should not be up to the "community" etc to determine how we play it, except where we play against other members of said community. While I consider myself pretty much a purist, there is always the time when even I may want to say.."wait..what if..." and I should be allowed to do so, that idea,that curiosity,is what makes wargaming fun anyway, after all, if we just exactly copied everything, no need to play,we already know who won or lost.
Also as a note here to osiris, very quickly and politely off topic, German civilians were killed as well as the nationalities you mentioned, including many members of my own family. Your point semed to imply that it was only Germans doing the killing, my family lost 2 aunts,and a baby, in the weeks AFTER the front line moved through E. Prussia, also.

[osiris_slith]

Hi

Yes we are purist and bloody proud of it too..we can be flexible but not to the point of being stupid. Why in gods name do you want civilians in a tactical game? Is slaughtering innocents that appealing..what tactical impact will it have on the game..absolutley none!

As for the community which I have been part of now for more than 6 years I have never heard of such an idiotic idea! Putting civilians in this game..Next comes cows and sheeps because they provide cover for the infantry..where do we draw the line?

I think the community has some say in what they will play. Ive seen it happen in the last few days just how strong the CS community is when we all jumped on the variable visiblity issue and got the changes we wanted for patch 1.03

If the majority of us say we dont want civilians in CS than Im willing to bet matrix will listen and agree. So in effect the community is going to tell you what you are going to play.

Some standards of morals and ethics need to be maintained, killing innocents to make things more real is really mindless and sick! If you dont like it than I have a really simple solution for you: Dont play!

Your family paid a terrible price in that war and its really sad it happened. Do you really want to recreate that nightmare in this game over and over again?

Finally
An error on my part! Most civilians in world war 2 were killed long after the front line passed by and this includes german civilians as well especially when the red army started to invade germany.

osiris

[1925frank]

Thank you, kg_1007. There's a good book in English on the Soviet overrunning of East Prussia and Eastern Germany in general: "The Fall of Berlin 1945" by Anthony Beevor. Beevor also has a book out on Stalingrad.

Virtually everyone who posts has a vision of what they'd like the game to be or to become. There's a mods section with a lot of great things. Dumnorix's mod is an example of just how far a person can push the mods. There's a Korean mod and, I believe, a Nato/Warsaw Pact mod too. I've got the old Talonsoft Divided Ground, but I'm not computer smart enough to figure out the Vietnam mod. The additional countries and units allow for greater flexibility. Some of them may never get used. Some may turn out to be real klunkers. Some might add some surprising spice to the games, even if it's just for play against the AI. This game is a chameleon.

I still don't get how the civilians work. If you kill enemy civilians, do you get points or lose points? If you gain points by having the enemy kill your civilians, you'd rush your civilians to the front lines. If they're your civilians, you'd want to protect them. I wouldn't want the game to encourage the wanton destruction of civilians either.

If I'm not mistaken, the Japanese kept the civilian population in Manilla to discourage the Americans from using artillery, and about 100,000 civilians died in the fighting for Manilla. I don't think the idea is to kill civilians for the sake of killings civilians. I think the idea was to show how civilians got in the way or to show how civilians were used unscrupulously to gain some tactical advantage. Apparently civilians were already part of the Vietnam mod of Divided Ground. In Market Garden, I believe civilians caused major obstacles when they celebrated what they thought was their liberation. I'm not sure those things can be modeled in the game, but I'm surprised at the hostility of trying to model that in the game. Jason mentioned the civilian rescue idea. Civilians are part of the matrix of war (no pun intended), and they can affect tactics.

Regarding the swatikas, I thought I read this weekend that it's illegal in Germany to display swatikas. There was that wax figure of Hitler in a museum that got its head yanked off, and the subject of what can and can't be displayed came up. I don't know. Perhaps a German could clear that up.

[cw58]

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

I still don't get how the civilians work. If you kill enemy civilians, do you get points or lose points? If you gain points by having the enemy kill your civilians, you'd rush your civilians to the front lines. If they're your civilians, you'd want to protect them. I wouldn't want the game to encourage the wanton destruction of civilians either.

If you kill enemy civilians, you lose VPs. Yes, you would gain VPs by having the enemy kill your civilians but hopefully the only opponent dumb enough to kill civilians would be Hal. It seems to me that civilians are intended (in CS) to be more of an obstacle than anything else, like clogging up the roads as we discussed before. They are certainly not intended to be slaughtered as that can only hurt your chances of winning. And they could really only be used in a human vs. human game, as the AI doesn't know not to shoot them.

Perhaps 'civilians' would be a more appropriate unit in a war like the ones we face today, in which combatants make an effort to embed themselves among non-combatants for protection. Maybe what is being modeled is a weaker force winning a political victory by causing civilians deaths at the hands of a stronger enemy. At any rate, we still have a choice to use them or not.

[marcbarker]

On the swastika issue, that is a lae in Germany. They can not be depicted. I think this is the reason that talonsoft excluded them in version 1.01 i believe of West Front. It was a fairly big issue during the release of East Front. CW is correct in that the Civilian aspect would be more of an obstacle to avoid during battle. Much like a minefeild. You know they are there but you definately do not want your troops going through them. I just think it boils down to the basic question of do we have a choice in how we want to play the game?

[MrRoadrunner]

No one here is telling anyone how to play the game.
I think my only theme throughout has been not to change the game and force it on players. For those who do not understand that, I wish you the best.
Play whatever you want in any way you want.
Just do not try to suggest that the scale should be changed, or units that do not fit into that scale should be added (because they are "kewl"), and try to shoehorn the game into what it was never intended to be.
Whatever you do in the privacy of your own home is fine by me! [:)]

[marcbarker]

Really I can suggest anything I care to no matter how rediculas may see it. It may seem stupid by your view point but really i do not care what you think. The whole theme of what I was trying to suggest is do not lock the game down so tight where you cannot think outside the box with tweaks and add ons. Only thing is this Your a purist so you saying leave the engine and editing tools alone that I will agree with. Do not lock them down as to not give me the option to create a mod myself for my own amusement and enjoyment. Choice is the issue when I buy a game. I look at fun, playability, read a few comments then decide. My purchase is not predicated on the next wiz bang update but rather I may enjoy it. After I play the game a few times I look at ok the stock version is OK now lets see what I can do with it. Prime example Silent Hunter III and IV and U-Boat Missions. Have you ever played those. They are a great game. Caal of Duty same thing. American Civil War, Robert E Lee's General. There is others but in all these games they leave the choice up to you as a consumer and player have fun. Read the EULAs. I do not plan to make any profit from a game I modded nor anything like that. So all I say is have a ball in the land of strategy and tactics. Win the Battle and capture the flag

[simovitch]

[;)]

[1925frank]

Well, I am retarded.  I don't know what everyone else's excuse is.  The "MHMR" in the "From" space stands for "Mental Health and Mental Retardation."  You have no idea how hard it is to slip onto the Internet when the guards aren't looking.

The "civilians" might fall in the klunker category.  If they are only functional in a human game, I would think the human would constantly throw them in the path of the enemy, which would be unrealistic.

Regarding the swatikas, there are mods where you can add them.

[paulsalayko]

SIMOVITCH YOU RULE[&o]

You managed to make a picture sum up what a couple hundred people were thinking. HAHA, I almost pissed myself, haha

[cw58]

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

Well, I am retarded.  I don't know what everyone else's excuse is.  The "MHMR" in the "From" space stands for "Mental Health and Mental Retardation."  You have no idea how hard it is to slip onto the Internet when the guards aren't looking.

The "civilians" might fall in the klunker category.  If they are only functional in a human game, I would think the human would constantly throw them in the path of the enemy, which would be unrealistic.

LOL[:D][:D]
I think you might be right (about the klunker thing[;)].) They would need to be used in a human game and fixed, or else have a house rule against suicide attacks. Another thing I noticed is that they have an attack value. You would have to be careful not to be goaded into return op-fire attacks. Probably more trouble than they're worth.

[1925frank]

The civilians blocking roads would be more a strategic thing than a tactical thing.  Everyone would clear off once anyone suspected enemy forces were near, so from a tactical standpoint, which is what CS is, it wouldn't be a good fit.  In combat areas, the roads would be clear of civilians and refugees.

On the other hand, in a number of scenarios reinforcements come in from far back, and they use the roads without any impediments.  If it's far enough back, I could see where there'd be roads clogged with refugees.  That, however, can be simulated by the variable reinforcement percentages.  So even on that score, you wouldn't need civilian units.

I don't object to experimentation with civilian units. In quick unexpected thrusts, I can see where you might have civilians trapped in combat zones that would complicate tactical decisions. The dropping of paratroops or glider troops behind enemy lines might cause similar problems. I can also see the rescue mission Jason suggested.

[marcbarker]

Thank you very much my son is down syndrome. Yoiu think it is funny to compare retarded people with that. Actually he is a Savant with numbers. You people are something else. All I was suggesting is do not lock the choice down. How is that hurting your game on your computer? How does that effect your OOB? It don't. How does it effect the the next Upgrade it don't.......Why then do you think Noncombatants is a hinderance to my game? If the Platoon.obx was open you could add your own and not worry about it. and when the next upgrade hit you would lose it big whoop....who cares...

[simovitch]

barker, I sincerely apologize for any offense that was taken.

regards,

Richard

[marcbarker]

Non taken... it is funny though....I ain't that thin skinned to enjoy a joke. I like the one earlier with the scotts and the sheep...that was baaaaaaad

[1925frank]

Retardation, not downs syndrome, runs in my family.  I can still enjoy a joke about it.  I don't think any disrespect was intended.  The butt of the joke was us, not retarded people.  I guess because I've got retarded family members, I don't necessarily get upset at being compared to one. 
 
Barker, for reasons unknown to me, I can't think of a single newcomer who's gotten off to a worse start than you on the forum.  I look forward to your posts, and I hope you share some of your mods. From your perspective, this forum must seem like a really hostile place.  I hope you ride it out.  I think you'll enjoy it notwithstanding the rough start.

[sfinlay]

Thank you very much my son is a shee.... !  Alright, I won't go down that comedy cul-de-sac.

[1925frank]

I expected the "flying scotsman" to get upset about the reference to Scots, but no, he sticks up for the sheep.