Looking for German opponent

[Morphy]

***TOP SECRET***

MESSAGE FROM THE GERMAN EMBASSY IN SWEDEN


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ONLY FOR THE FUEHRER

SWEDISH AMBASSADOR CLAIMED SOVIETS WANT TO NEGOTIATE A CEASE FIRE. THEY ASK FOR TERMS.

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[Morphy]

Latest stoppress:

General Hans-Juergen von Arnim, the commander of XXXIX. Panzerkorps was awarded with Knight's cross of the Iron Cross.

He was also mentioned in Wehrmachtsbericht.

[TDV]

This is probably the last screenshot in the game. Morphy proved brilliantly that it’s impossible to stop German tanks. A German player can form an overstrenghed PzCorps (probably 3 Panzer Divs, 2 Motorized Divs plus 3 Pz or Stug Bns). It was XXXIX PzCorps in our game.
Look and its location on Sept 7th (48,15). Supply level = 1 . I sacrified the Army (NorthWest of PzCorps). This Army jumped 2 hexes west to cut a supply of PzCorps. At the same turn a surrounded Shock Army cut the railway west of Rzhev (actually, 2 or 3 Armies received the order to do that and one of them achieved success in the movement).
After that XXXIX PzCorps had a supply line over the mountains only and his supply level was decreased.
But it means nothing for Germans: XXXIX PzCorps received AIR SUPPLY and it is located at (51,16) next week (Sept 14th). Pay attention to its Supply level. SL=0 !
Morover, the Soviet airforces got three successful bombing and decreased the readiness of XXXIX PzCorps on 30% more (Soviets lost many good pilots to clear the sky over that PzCorps) .
In spite of that, after receiving AIR SUPPLY XXXIX PzCorps drived forward, attacked over the river a well entrenched Soviet Army, got success and occupied the hex (52, 15) on Sept 21st.
Again, please pay attention to Supply level. SL=1 ! Now three week in a row that PzCorps had supply level 1-0-1.
Next week it’s a new opponent of XXXIX PzCorps was a full-sized well-entrenched 4th Shock Army (1 Tank + 8 Rifle divisions (250 tanks and 1500 squads), entrench level = 4, readiness 70%, under Zhukov command with 59 Ops, HQs was located just behind the 4th Shock Army ). The Soviet bombers bombed the German tanks three times again to reduce readiness.
On Sept 28th XXXIX PzCorps (with help anothet tired PzCorps) smashed the defense of 4 th Shock Army, then drived 3 hexes further (both Moscow suburbs were taken despite of good entrenchment), cut off the railway on east of Moscow and finished the encirclement around the Moscow.

What else Russians could do? They reduced the Supply level of this PzCorps every turn, they bombed the PzCorps every turn, they created a group of the best Russian divisions (4th Shock Army) for stoppping XXXIX PzCorps on well-prepared position.

Now Moscow is encircled as well as the group of Russian Armies located west of Moscow.
The Soviet side has no choice. We are surrendered.

Regards,
TDV

[asa]

I would be interested to get the full set of house rules TDV and Morphy agreed to use to play this campaign.

[Morphy]

Well, TDV, you're not right: my XXXIX Panzerkorps has 2 panzerdivisions and 2 motorized divisions plus some extra battallion-sized units.

I've mentioned somewhere, that

ORIGINAL: Morphy
XXXIX Panzerkorps composed of: 7. Panzer Division, 20. Panzer Division, 14. Infanterie Division (Mot.), 20. Infanterie Division (Mot.), 101. Panzerbattalion plus some Jgdpz-II, artillery and flak units. Really strong in number but has only old tanks (Pz-II, Czech tanks, and approx. 50 Pz-IVd/e).

And I was wrong only in one point: there were not 50 but 70-80 Pz IV D/E, but still mainstay of the unit were Pz-II and Czech units. Its strenght can be checked on enclosed scans.

Strenght of the unit can be seen on screenshots. Each turn it received extra supply either by air or by land or both.

Additionally TDV made my job very easy because of 2 mistakes:
1. he abandoned other areas therefore I decided to place ALL bombers and transport planes on Moscow direction. Each army attacking in the centre has 8-10 plane units, what means if 2 units attack an enemy army they get support from over 1000 bombers. 3 allowed aerial attacks on a single TDVs army means that it's force can be reduced by 300 infantry squads and 50-100 AFVs.

2. It was TDV who overstacked units, I don't like doing it: infantry units get tired much easier and they block fast moving of panzerkorps. Additionaly they regain readiness much more slowly. It is worth mentioning - even if Soviet unit has 100% readiness, at the beginning of German phase its readiness is decreased by 20-30% (this is the factor in 1941 - see the game manual). Additionally his troops loose readiness due to 3 powerful aerial attacks (before abandoning other areas I attacked with 1-2 bomber divisions, later I used like 6-7), what means their readiness dropped further. An overstacked unit, especially on the Soviet side, gets penalty due to disorganisation (I remember when I played Second Front I didn't know the disorganisation idea and I was surprised when I created super-tank armies their readiness level dropped to 4% even without moving the unit).

Soviet battle experience approx. 50% means only half of their troops fight.

All in all when I attacked such overstacked unit only 300-400 inf. squads resisted me and very rarely it exceeded 450.

It prooves only 1 thing:

Before I started the campaign I told TDV if he likes to play Soviets '41 he must like loosing games, because Germans in '41 are unstoppable. And our game prooved I was right. If I play against an experienced player like, for example, TDV on the Soviet side I would probably fail too. Soviets are too weak in '41.

[TDV]

Morphy
Additionally TDV made my job very easy because of 2 mistakes:
1. he abandoned other areas therefore I decided to place ALL bombers and transport planes on Moscow direction.

Lets suppose I protected Leningrad. You cut off the railway behind of Moscow on September 28th. It means all troops on the North (including Leningrad) will get a strategic encirclement and SL=0. They all will be dead even without fighting because of starvation.

How the Russian side can interfere you use all Luftwaffe in the center? This is up to you only. If a German player knows that it is impossible to stop German tanks he can forget about Leningrad, just drive to Moscow by the shortest way, don't pay attention for Red Army (you will defeat even the best entrenched Shock Army if it will be on your way)

What is the sense to protect Leningrad? What is the sense to attack Leningrad? You will cut off everything in the North and in the Center including Moscow in the end of September. Nothing can stop you. You don't need even Supply Lines (even SL=0 is fine because you can restore readiness by AIR SUPPLY)

Morphy
2. It was TDV who overstacked units, I don't like doing it

I don't think it is a mistake to use overstacked units for Soviets. At least this is not a mistake that allow you to encircle Moscow. If you defeated 4th Shock Army (1 Tank + 7 Rifle divisions) do you believe I would stop you with a weaker unit?

[TDV]

I would suggest to anyone who like to play the German side try the following strategy:

Form a long column from 6-7 Panzer Corps, place a good Pz Corps on top and march from Brest to Moscow by the shortest way. Every turn AIR SUPPLY three times one or two first PanzerCorps to restore the readiness. All other PzCorps will protect the rear only (not allow to cut off the first PzCorps and break the column). Russians are unable to fulfil a coordinated attack in June-September anyway.
Count the distance between Brest and Moscow in hexes. Divide it by 5. It will be a number of weeks when you will take Moscow.

[Morphy]

ORIGINAL: TDV

Lets suppose I protected Leningrad. You cut off the railway behind Moscow on September 28th. It means all troops on the North (including Leningrad) will get a strategic encirclement and SL=0. They all will be dead even without fighting because of starvation.

It means Leningrad will produce equipment, provide infantry squads and bind German units, maybe XXXIX. Panzerkorps as well...

ORIGINAL: TDV
How the Russian side can interfere you use all Luftwaffe in the center? This is up to you only.

Well, capture of Moscow is not sufficient to defeat Soviets, but is very crippling.

ORIGINAL: TDV
If a German player knows that it is impossible to stop German tanks he can forget about Leningrad, just drive to Moscow by the shortest way, don't pay attention for Red Army (you will defeat even the best entrenched Shock Army if it will be on your way)

What is the sense to protect Leningrad? What is the sense to attack Leningrad? You will cut off everything in the North and in the Center including Moscow in the end of September. Nothing can stop you. You don't need even Supply Lines (even SL=0 is fine because you can restore readiness by AIR SUPPLY)

TDV, I had told you before we started the game: if you play Soviets in 1941 against an experienced player, you will loose. Don't be angry at me - it is not me who created this scenario... nor it is me who is responsible for the great purge and failure of communism. In fact, I'm anticommunist. I just claimed if you play Soviets 1941 you would loose. And you did. Moreover: if I play Soviets against you, I will loose probably as well. It is like death and taxes: it will unavoidably happen. Don't blame me for this.

ORIGINAL: TDV
I don't think it is a mistake to use overstacked units for Soviets. At least this is not a mistake that allow you to encircle Moscow. If you defeated 4th Shock Army (1 Tank + 7 Rifle divisions) do you believe I would stop you with a weaker unit?

You loose less units than and Germans are more tired.

[Morphy]

ORIGINAL: TDV

I would suggest to anyone who like to play the German side try the following strategy:

Form a long column from 6-7 Panzer Corps, place a good Pz Corps on top and march from Brest to Moscow by the shortest way. Every turn AIR SUPPLY three times one or two first PanzerCorps to restore the readiness. All other PzCorps will protect the rear only (not allow to cut off the first PzCorps and break the column). Russians are unable to fulfil a coordinated attack in June-September anyway.
Count the distance between Brest and Moscow in hexes. Divide it by 5. It will be a number of weeks when you will take Moscow.

As I told you: every time Soviets 1941 fight against an experienced player, they loose. You disagreed, I proved you are wrong. And now I have a feeling you blame me for this... It is not me who created 1941 scenario. In fact Possum modes were created because, among other things, 1941 was too much in favor of Germans...

[TDV]

Morphy, I don't blame you. It was a perfect game and I had fun. You are a very good player (I don't agree with some of your ideas but you have original ideas) I'm just surprised that the key for the German victory is so simple (I played 40-50 times against human opponents before and just discovered it).

[PaxMondo]

And Flankers Possum version takes this even further I beleive.  His map at least, makes it more difficult for the Axis.

[PaxMondo]

TDV: Can you publish the SOV final forces?  I ask because I have seen so MANY/MUCH errors on the Axis reports of SOV losses.  Just curious where your forces were really at.

[PaxMondo]

Murphy: How do you see this overstcking penalty?  It's in the manual somewhere, but I'm not sure that I have seen it in the game.  Does it show up in CV? [&:]

[Morphy]

If you download wir game file from matrix you will find enclosed game manual (file named warrussia.pdf). On page 19/20 is described in detail the idea of desorganisation.

The idea is if a Soviet ordinary army has 1 tank corps and 7 infantry divisions it looses... 50% of readiness!!! If it is a shock army it doesn't loose any readiness. Thus in '41 campaign Soviets can create only 7 or 8 armies which have enough stacking points not to loose readiness (shock armies, 88 th and 89th army).

[TDV]

ORIGINAL: Morphy

The idea is if a Soviet ordinary army has 1 tank corps and 7 infantry divisions it looses... 50% of readiness!!! If it is a shock army it doesn't loose any readiness. Thus in '41 campaign Soviets can create only 7 or 8 armies which have enough stacking points not to loose readiness (shock armies, 88 th and 89th army).

1 tank + 7 rifle divisions = 10 Stacking Points
According to a manual the penalty is 5% for this size of Shock Army because 9 is allowed size for the Shock Army.


I tell you more. A Soviet Overstacking Army doesn’t have penalty for overstacking (disorganization) in a moment of your attack. The penalty will be affected at the next turn only. That’s why it’s safe for Russians to have overstacking Armies for 1 turn.
You can look yourself on a turn sequence:

Turn sequence:
1. Axis Events
2. Partisan
3. Axis Supply
4. Axis HQs
5. Axis Replacements
6. Axis Readiness Recovery
7. Axis Orders
8. Combat
9. Soviet Supply
10. Soviet HQs
11. Soviet Replacements
12. Soviet Readiness Recovery
13. Soviet Orders
14. Combat
15. Victory Condirions


I place my order (number 13). In this moment I relocate the best divisions with hugh readiness from HQs in a frame of the former “Engineering Army”. You will attack me in the phase number 8. I will receive the penalty for overstacking in a phase number 12 only, after the battle. If I hold a position my Army will be transferred in the rear. Next turn you will deal with a new fresh overstacking Shock Army. If I lost the battle and the overstacking Army forced to retreat, I will move out extra divisions from the Army and I will restore its readiness a couple more turns.

In some cases overstacking Army saves good readiness even for the next turn. It happens with some probability if the Army connected to HQs with a good leader (at least level 8). The Leader's authority affects on readiness.

So overstacking Armies have the advantages only (of corse if you are in defense and you have the second layer of good divisions behind

[PaxMondo]

Interesting.  Thanks guys. I had not really understood this at all from the manual.

[Morphy]

ORIGINAL: TDV
1 tank + 7 rifle divisions = 10 Stacking Points
According to a manual the penalty is 5% for this size of Shock Army because 9 is allowed size for the Shock Army.

But you can have only 7-8 Shock Armies, others are ordinary armies and receive huge disorganisation penalties. Additionaly such huge rotation as you describe means you need a lot of units.

And - after all - you overstacked your units and when I started the Operation Typhoon I enveloped them what was a real disaster for you. Hadn't your units been overstacked the disaster would be half of that. Don't you think it would be better to create 2 defense lines on adjacent hexes with the first one having 'regular' armies and the other one overstacked? Then the main German attack would be directed against weaker units and then tired panzer crews would face powerful, well organized defense?

[TDV]

ORIGINAL: Morphy

you overstacked your units and when I started the Operation Typhoon I enveloped them what was a real disaster for you. Hadn't your units been overstacked the disaster would be half of that.

I don’t understand your logic. Yes, Russians are weak in 1941. There is always a risk of encirclement. This is a fatum: to fight and to die, paying 5-6 lifes for a one German life in the best case. I form a front of Shock Armies (usually 1 Tank + 7 Rifle Divs) to stop or at least to show threat to advancing German tanks. Who has better chances to fulfil this job: oversized Army or just a regular sized army (minus 30-60% strenght in the last case)?

ORIGINAL: Morphy
Don't you think it would be better to create 2 defense lines on adjacent hexes with the first one having 'regular' armies and the other one overstacked? Then the main German attack would be directed against weaker units and then tired panzer crews would face powerful, well organized defense?

In most cases German troops drive through a normal Army like a knife through butter. You did it yourself sometimes in our game, you even didn’t pay attention on so weak resistance.
From my experience, the second line of Armies must be “overstacked” more than a first line:
Usually my first lined Shock Army consists of 1 Tank + 7 Rifle Divs (10 SP, 5% penalties). The second lined Regular Army consists of 8 Rifle Divisions (8SP and only 5 allowed, 20% penalty). Actually, a Regular Army in the second line is weaker that a Shock Army from the first line on 10-15% only. Why? Because WIR shows the strenght of Tank Divs incorrectly for a defense. A formula for tanks in defense (defense value) is is (number of tanks x 2). A formula for a tanks in attack (attack value) is (number of tanks x 4). When you see a Tank Corps strenght in WIR you see it’s counted as an attack value. The Real strenght in defense in 2 times less (roughly). So Tank Corps with value 500 (100 tanks + 100 squads) is equal to a simple rifle division (300 squads) in a defense. That’s why it’s useless to use Tank corps with a shown strenght less than 600 in a defense line (you pay 3 times more stacking points for the same quality).

[Tom1939]

If I know this right the manual with the game is outdated. In the patches matrix did (I dont know which) the stacking point of panzer/tank/shock is 10 now not 9. Soviet army is 5, german infantry 4.

[Morphy]

TDV,you might not know it, but defeating your stacking armies demanded a lof of effort on my side. It wasn't easy as you think. In order to break through I had to bomb it, provide aerial support during fight and attack with at least 2 armored corps. 1 wasn't usually enough. I will never forget when I attacked your army which was left without supply with 3 infantry corps and they failed! My point is: if Germans have to cross the first, weaker line than their attack on strong shock armies will usually result in 1 on 1 attack what ALWAYS means high losses. Additionally most players focus only on the first defensive line, second is considered weaker. I think the key to success as Soviets is in 2 things:
1. cutting them off and breaking supply lines;
2. forcing them to attack strong, well entrenched armies with hundreds of tanks what always results in high losses. A German unit without tanks becomes powerless (a tank is counted during fight as infantry squad x 4, what means 50 tanks are worth as much as 200 infantry squads; for armored cars the factor is 2).

Nothing reduces German forces as much as running Pz-II, Czech T38 and Pz-IV against hundreds of T-34 and KVs...

BTW: I'm still waiting for your file to continue the game... I hope you don't give up before fall of Moscow...