What is the fairest most balance Scenario for WIR and which house rules.

[Zhukov43]

I want to know which Scenario is the consensus all around most balanced (including a fixed map). Additionally what house rules (please cut and paste in response). I love the WIR game engine, but i want to play it in a way that both sides have an equal opportunity to win or at least have a great balalnced battle.

I think that historically speaking if The Germans had actually focused there attacks and Hitler had no part in the prosecution of the war, that they would have succeeded in taking Moscow quickly. Additionally the troops would have been prepared for winter so, much of the attrition losses would have been to equipment only. The Russians would maybe have been able to mount a Winter 41' campaign but without the logistics center of Moscow it would have been greatly diminished. I have no idea if the Germans could ever have won a war with a determined Soviet opponent, but the war may have dragged on for more years.

The point I am trying to make is that in our game (WIR) the game engine is set up to allow the Germans to do what was always possible for the real Germans, through good strategy and tactics to accomplish. What I want though is to play a full 1941 and on scenario that allows both players as equal an opportunity to succeed. History is history, if I want to replay history then I can play the standard WIR scenario.. even with its issues, it is very close to the reality of the 41 campaign, however I want to play a scenario that lasts and requires both players full mental abilities and presents both with a real challenege in which any slight mistake may cost the player dearly.

Thanks,
Zhukov43

[Morphy]

I don't want to be mean but I suggest you rather try playing chess than WIR...


It's the most balanced game I know...

[8D]

[PaxMondo]

Murphy, in your humor, you have a good point.  The difficulty of Barbarossa is that the historical outcome was not the most likely one.  Most of the histories that I have read paint a picture that SOV got a bit lucky once or twice and Hitler interfered just a couple of times too often and there you have the historical result.  So, when you make the game, the problem is that most of the time the Axis should get to Moscow and Leningrad in '41 [assuming equal players].  And if they don't, then most of the time SOV should win. 

Now, Possum and Flankers Possum mods make it tougher for Axis to win in '41.  In fact, I can't beat the AI in Flanker's moid [but that doesn't mean much, I'm not that good a player yet].  From watching the games here, it appears that either are pretty balanced in terms of playability.  Meaning, match Josun and King up on either side and either one could snatch victory.  Advantage is still a bit with the Axis, but it appears to be much narrower.

The real problem in the game design is: what happens if Moscow and Leningrad fall?  In WIR the assumption is: game over.  IRL, that analysis is not nearly so conclusive.  My interpretation of the history is that at that point it is over for Stalin.  He does not survive the loss of those two cities.  But does the SOV capitulate?  That isn't so clear.  The Allies would have paid dearly to keep the SOV in the war so anyone taking over would be hard pressed to turn down the aid.  Also, the attrocities against the SOV civilian population were something that had inflamed the public.  So, the chance that they stay in the war is pretty good.

So saying this, then the GER victory goal should be moved up to 8 or even more points.  AND if Moscow and Leningrad fall, then LndLse should really kick into gear reflecting the allies desperation to keep SOV in the war.  In other words, losing Moscow and Leningrad isn't game over.  It clearly is a knockdown, but hardly the end of the fight.  To me, that is what would make WIR more interesting.

[Morphy]

PaxMondo: I'm MORPHY nut Murphy.

Anyhow, Hitler made just one mistake: he treated Slavs as slaves and it turned against him. It is worth mentioning most Ukrainians and Russians (not mentioning guys from Baltic states) hated communists. Ukrainians were starved to death and there are descriptions canibalism in 1920s and 1930s. Initially when Germans entered the USSR they were many times greeted with joy and enthusiasm and it would be suffice just to treat local people correctly instead of humiliating them like Lenin and Stalin did (the first one being much worse than the other). Russians and Ukrainians didn't fight for Stalin, they fought for 'matushka Rossija' (mother Russia).

One more thing: as you might know Poland was one of the first countries invaded by the 2 ruthless dictators- Stalin and Hitler. My country was divided between them and what is worth mentioning - very few people escaped from General Gubern (German part) to the USSR (rather to Romania) while plenty of people tried to escape from lands occupied by Soviets to Germans, who were cruel, ruthless committed manslaughter but - they were still less worse.

And eventually you're right: the main difference is after 1941 it was Stalin who listened to his generals and Hitler who disregarded them, berated and considered himself the greatest military leader. Unfortunately, because the best possible outcome of the war would be like WWI i.e. capitulation of both the USSR and III Reich. The worst - fall of England, and peace between the USSR and Hitler.

[Zhukov43]

Morphy,

I play chess already. I prefer gammon though, I enjoy the slight amount of luck involved. I sent you a PM.

To everyone

thanks for the posts.

Zhukov43

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Morphy

PaxMondo: I'm MORPHY nut Murphy.

Sorry guy, I don't squint as good as I used to.

[Rasputitsa]

I think that the map has a large influence on the play balance of the game. When the Germans cut rail contact between Moscow and Leningrad the whole of the western part of the Russian defence goes out of supply and collapses. There is historical reference to a railway line passing north of Moscow opened in 1941, just before the start of Barbarossa, it is noted that it was single track and of limited capacity but it was there. I use a map file that has two railway tracks by-passing Moscow to the north which ensures that the Germans do not get an easy victory, but must fight for it. This does not change history, if you view the rail net as a total supply system, including roads, rivers etc. When the French set up their base at Dien Bien Phu in Vietnam they thought that the Viet Minh would never get supplies through the jungle to combat the base, but heavy artillery was broken up carried with supplies transported on bicycles. I am sure that the Russians would have moved supplies somehow (like building a railway on ice to Leningrad). There is a kind of balance in the historical war in the east, which is why it went on so long, the game just needs to reflect what was possible at the time.

Agree with Morphy's comments, it was more than just tanks and guns [:)]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

I think that the map has a large influence on the play balance of the game.

I agree and that is why I think Flankers Possum mod addresses the balance issue most. I find it still very hard to beat the AI, forget a HUM player, in '41 as GER with his mod. Now, it may go too far, and that is why most MP players prefer the original Possum mod. I'm not sure ...