Assault rule changes

[MrRoadrunner]

ORIGINAL: Legionaer

Ver interesting to read the different views. But don´t forget ... the developers followed a target thought about the change for the assault rules in that Update. And i´m sure that was not done in a few hours. Respect [&o][&o][&o]

I like the news, but that´s my view ... and playable is the game also. The best and realistic CS i´ve ever played! [:D]

Regards,
Stefan

Sorry to say, I do not think that is quite correct. [&:]
We were promised Upgrades, new units, new scenarios & campaigns, and bug fixes?

Instead of simple support for the game, a small group of "developers" decided to change the whole way the game is played, ie the variable visibility and assault rules. Whether they took hours, days, or months to come up with the stupid assault change, it still changed the game. it was not an update or improvement.
This is not simply going to be relearning how to do things, this is learning how to play an entirely new game. [:(]

I'm thoroughly disgusted.

And, for the comments (not made by you) about my test; I cannot help if others have not repeated what I was able to do, and see, when I ran my test with assault. But, I did see it happen over the course of three different turns. If it happened for me it will surely happen for me again and for someone else as well. It was one of the stupidest things I've ever seen happen in the game.

I do not know if I even want to continue playing the game. That, is how disgusted I am.

Message to developers and Beta testers; change back to what it was in a near future small patch. Do not make any more changes that CHANGE the entire game and the way it is played.
Correct the bugs and glitches. Give us scenarios and campaigns. Improve the game. Please do not change it.

Ed

[Tiger88_slith]

Jason and Matrix - I am still on the fence post when it comes to the new assault rules when it comes to fighting units, but unfortunately - when it comes to trucks, wagons, stand alone leaders, mortorcycles and wether or not these units or loaded or unloaded - the assault rules are just not realistic! I have my opponnets leader (standing alone) surrounded by several platoon of soldiers and several M18's and the lone leader is able to fend off the assualt. Do we really think for one minute that this really would have happened? THe assaulting routine needs to be changed somehow so that the non-combat units are not effected by the rules. This really swings the pendulem the other way and is now not very realistic and kinda ruins the game to be honest with you. I am hoping this can be "tweaked"?

[MrRoadrunner]

Hate to say it, but, if that really happened ... the game just sucks now. Especially for PBEM play. [:(]

[Tiger88_slith]

Totally true Ed! This is just me and my honest openion now - but the assaulting rules have changed the game for the worse - and I am more than a little upset about this - the assaulting rules if they go as is - I may put this game down for awhile.... totally bummed out!

[sztartur2]

I also played a campaign battle with the brits. A single disrupted platoon of Germans (ok it was a town hex but not improved) held off many assaults against 3 inf platoons 4 armored car platoons and one full strength Firefly company!!! Of course the german unit was surrounded by every hex! That is not realistic by all means. Please change it back to what it was...

Artur.

[Legionaer]

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

ORIGINAL: Legionaer

Ver interesting to read the different views. But don´t forget ... the developers followed a target thought about the change for the assault rules in that Update. And i´m sure that was not done in a few hours. Respect [&o][&o][&o]

I like the news, but that´s my view ... and playable is the game also. The best and realistic CS i´ve ever played! [:D]

Regards,
Stefan

Sorry to say, I do not think that is quite correct. [&:]
We were promised Upgrades, new units, new scenarios & campaigns, and bug fixes?

Instead of simple support for the game, a small group of "developers" decided to change the whole way the game is played, ie the variable visibility and assault rules. Whether they took hours, days, or months to come up with the stupid assault change, it still changed the game. it was not an update or improvement.
This is not simply going to be relearning how to do things, this is learning how to play an entirely new game. [:(]

I'm thoroughly disgusted.

And, for the comments (not made by you) about my test; I cannot help if others have not repeated what I was able to do, and see, when I ran my test with assault. But, I did see it happen over the course of three different turns. If it happened for me it will surely happen for me again and for someone else as well. It was one of the stupidest things I've ever seen happen in the game.

I do not know if I even want to continue playing the game. That, is how disgusted I am.

Message to developers and Beta testers; change back to what it was in a near future small patch. Do not make any more changes that CHANGE the entire game and the way it is played.
Correct the bugs and glitches. Give us scenarios and campaigns. Improve the game. Please do not change it.

Ed

Sorry to say, I do not think that is quite correct.

Ok Ed, you have another view about this, but that´s what i think!

We were promised Upgrades, new units, new scenarios & campaigns, and bug fixes?

Ed, there are a lot of news in the new v1.03, after my opinion nearly already too many units. How many units we need still? 100? 1000? or more? Bug fixes ... ok, here i agree with you.

Instead of simple support for the game, a small group of "developers" decided to change the whole way the game is played, ie the variable visibility and assault rules. Whether they took hours, days, or months to come up with the stupid assault change, it still changed the game. it was not an update or improvement.

Well, but Matrix Games is the owner of the rights and Talonsoft didn´t do a quarter of them for support in a few years what the guys from Matrix done in one year! A negative point is indeed that a lot of Hobby developer can do nothing without the Matrix men.

This is not simply going to be relearning how to do things, this is learning how to play an entirely new game.

Ok, but it´s possible![;)]

I'm thoroughly disgusted

Can understand!

And, for the comments (not made by you) about my test; I cannot help if others have not repeated what I was able to do, and see, when I ran my test with assault. But, I did see it happen over the course of three different turns. If it happened for me it will surely happen for me again and for someone else as well. It was one of the stupidest things I've ever seen happen in the game.

Well, sometimes some members lose respect and fairness or think only they are in right. Or are unable to understand what is meant ... like me [:D]

Message to developers and Beta testers; change back to what it was in a near future small patch. Do not make any more changes that CHANGE the entire game and the way it is played. Correct the bugs and glitches. Give us scenarios and campaigns. Improve the game. Please do not change it.

I´m sure that would be a wrong way! I think we need time to learn to like the new rules. But what i really not understand ... why you are so strong against this news?

Regards,
Stefan

[Temple]

Well now I am confused. I thought people were complaining because the new rule made assaults too easy. But now it is the opinion of many that assaults have become too hard?

[Erik Rutins]

Hi folks,

We're watching and listening, be assured that we'll be making tweak to address any unusual cases where the new assault rules are causing issues. The goal of the team in introducing these rules, which they've been testing in another release for a few months, was to reduce some unrealistic aspects of the old rules. With that said, any rough edges will be addressed, we're discussing in the background and watching your feedback.

Regards,

- Erik

[Legionaer]

ORIGINAL: sztartur

I also played a campaign battle with the brits. A single disrupted platoon of Germans (ok it was a town hex but not improved) held off many assaults against 3 inf platoons 4 armored car platoons and one full strength Firefly company!!! Of course the german unit was surrounded by every hex! That is not realistic by all means. Please change it back to what it was...

Artur.

Why do you think it´s unrealistic? In the history of war it´s also possible that a few men in strong positions hold against superior opponents. Disrupted or not, now it´s an adventure to assault units in strong positions, because they can still resist ... and thats not historical?

I believe it was announced that infantry especially in towns have now stronger combats values. Of course the german unit was surrounded by every hex! Well, they fight for their lives! Tanks and other armored vehicles are not weapons to assault infantry in towns now. (I think i read that?)

[Legionaer]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi folks,

We're watching and listening, be assured that we'll be making tweak to address any unusual cases where the new assault rules are causing issues. The goal of the team in introducing these rules, which they've been testing in another release for a few months, was to reduce some unrealistic aspects of the old rules. With that said, any rough edges will be addressed, we're discussing in the background and watching your feedback.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik, that´s the point!

[sztartur2]

ORIGINAL: Legionaer

ORIGINAL: sztartur

I also played a campaign battle with the brits. A single disrupted platoon of Germans (ok it was a town hex but not improved) held off many assaults against 3 inf platoons 4 armored car platoons and one full strength Firefly company!!! Of course the german unit was surrounded by every hex! That is not realistic by all means. Please change it back to what it was...

Artur.

Why do you think it´s unrealistic? In the history of war it´s also possible that a few men in strong positions hold against superior opponents. Disrupted or not, now it´s an adventure to assault units in strong positions, because they can still resist ... and thats not historical?

I believe it was announced that infantry especially in towns have now stronger combats values. Of course the german unit was surrounded by every hex! Well, they fight for their lives! Tanks and other armored vehicles are not weapons to assault infantry in towns now. (I think i read that?)

Dear Legionnaer,

Let us do a little math:

Terrain: town hex, no improvment.
On German side:
-3 squads, maybe around 30 men.-All disrupted.
On british Side:
-9 squads, cca 90 men
-4 Armoured cars cca 8 vehicles
-1 Firefly company 11 Firefly tanks with very good soft target attack.

The brits had 3:1 odds in infantry and enough support to shoot the brown stuff out of the Fritz before going in...

Is this adequate explanation for you . Those who also play Combat Mission or Steel Panthers can feel the difference in capability I am sure...

Artur.

[osiris_slith]

HI All


I havent played much yet but I think the new assault rules resemble SPWAW in many ways.

The defending unit being close assaulted in SPWAW actually gets to shoot back and defend it self in a close assault situation..you really need to have firepower around to take it out...

I think what they may want to do for 1.04 is what was done for Pzblitz and leader...double disruption or DD result. This means a good slog of firepower should generate a second level of disruption after which a close assault/overun is going to be 90% successful..

The new program in 1.04 could reflect this:
Turn 1
a unit hit attacked generates a dispruted result
chances of a overrun low

Turn 2
same unit which fails a morale check and remains disrupted is attacked again and this generates a second disrupted result
unit is now double dispersed: chances of morale recovery slim and chances of a successful overun/close assault high..

its a simple yet realistic fix..

A double dispersal represents a unit so disorganized by combat that it cannot function effectively as a cohesive formation and is essentially wiped out as a fighting organization

osiris

[Legionaer]

ORIGINAL: sztartur

Is this adequate explanation for you . Those who also play Combat Mission or Steel Panthers can feel the difference in capability I am sure...

Artur.

Yes Sir. But don´t forget, we don´t talk about CM or SP, it´s the CS Board and that is another game with an another engine. I´m sure you know that, but i wondering why so often different games will be compared with another. I think a lot of scenarios should be revised (Turns, Victory Values) and the new rules appears in another light.

Ok, send me your turn, we should "test" it. I play the Brits! My mailadress is stefan0164@web.de

[osiris_slith]

HI

an extra 1 or 2 levels of disruption can be included in this game...

dispersed, double dispersal

or

dispersed, double dispersal, broken and routed

its well within the game mechanics

soft target like empty trucks when shot at go to automatic double dispersal, or broken routed
loaded trucks when shot at, unload their infantry and the fight goes on from their

osiris

[sztartur2]

ORIGINAL: Legionaer

ORIGINAL: sztartur

Is this adequate explanation for you . Those who also play Combat Mission or Steel Panthers can feel the difference in capability I am sure...

Artur.

Yes Sir. But don´t forget, we don´t talk about CM or SP, it´s the CS Board and that is another game with an another engine. I´m sure you know that, but i wondering why so often different games will be compared with another. I think a lot of scenarios should be revised (Turns, Victory Values) and the new rules appears in another light.

Ok, send me your turn, we should "test" it. I play the Brits! My mailadress is stefan0164@web.de

It was the Market Garden campaign first scenario. It was the squad in the southernmost town with 10 pts. I have no save, I finally managed to win it (ok it is not the hardest scenario I know...). Just play around with hte game and you will experience many cases like that.

I liked this game very much until now, but now I am considering whether to go on or leave it. I hope Matrix people will tweak the whole stuff. I do not mind if assault is somewhat harder than it was but not too much harder. If someone managed to encircle and disrupt my units he/she should take the credit and glory...

Artur.

[MrRoadrunner]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi folks,

We're watching and listening, be assured that we'll be making tweak to address any unusual cases where the new assault rules are causing issues. The goal of the team in introducing these rules, which they've been testing in another release for a few months, was to reduce some unrealistic aspects of the old rules. With that said, any rough edges will be addressed, we're discussing in the background and watching your feedback.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik,

I am honestly trying to hold back both anger and tears. I fell in love with the original TS CS. It was sustained through all the years of non-support when Talonsoft went down the tubes and Take2 took it over.
When Matrix purchased it and really wanted to develop it I was thrilled. I thought I would be playing this game into the future, from a comfortable bed in a nursing home.

Now I am ready to mail back my hard copy, (no I do not want a refund) and delete my files from my computer. Yes, the changes to visibiluty and assault have done that.
There are no minor tweaks here. There is no extra realism that has been added.

Don't get me wrong.
I liked the new units. I don't care if there will be hundreds more. They can be used as scenario designers see fit.
I appreciated that coding was done to fix many of the "bug" issues that caused the game to lock up or crash.
I love the new graphics and any little bugs in the graphics can be fixed in a future minor patch.

What you do not seem to understand is in the area of variable visibility there was an added unrealism that changed every scenario previously played?
You may have thoughts, "Oh, this is minor and is really cool to have visibility change each turn." But, in fact it seriously changed every aspect of play since the first scenario was developed by the original designers.
The same holds true of the new Assault rules. I watched a scout car unable to overrun a soft target half track that was unloaded. That's realism?
Tiger888 wrote: "I have my opponnets leader (standing alone) surrounded by several platoon of soldiers and several M18's and the lone leader is able to fend off the assualt. Do we really think for one minute that this really would have happened?" That's realism?

I sadly must say that the new variable visibility, and assault rules, have changed the game into a game that is not Campaign Series. It is not the game I love. And, if it stays in it's current format, it will be a game that I will not play.
The product that came out of the 1.03 official patch/upgrade is not my Campaign Series game. It is some other game that looks like CS but, it is truly not CS. [:(]

Minor tweaks or smoothing out rough edges will only work if they return the game back to the way it was.
Until then I am seriously in the balance. I just finished playing six PBEM games that felt like I was not playing the same game or opponents. I'm about to offer all my opponents their victory's and just move one.

I did have great hopes. But, was sadly dissappointed in the crew, and Matrix staff, in their releasing a product that changed the whole game and made it unplayable as the game I grew to love and support.
You guys so ruined something.
Defending or downplaying what you did will not bring me back.

[R.E.LEE]

im not sure about the variable day night yet but the assualt rules i wish were left alone.its very much not real imo.

[MrRoadrunner]

When you have a driver hold off a scout car platoon, or a single Leader hold off a company of infantry supported by SP/AT, where is the realism.

As for visibility? Say you are playing the Germans. Some simple tactics play to the strength of the German armor. They can hit targets at range and can take hits at range.
You base a defense around that idea. As the game progresses the visibility of ten goes down to three. Suddenly you are fighting masses of Soviet armor at ranges where they can hit and do damage.
Now for the "purest", if it was in the 10th turn that means visibility was reduced by 1750 meters in one hour. Without the benefits of weather reports or foreknowledge whatsoever.
Luckily you have the new assault rules that will most likely allow a single disrupted Panther to hold off three or four T-34 companies, especially if there is a heroic Kraut leader in the hex? Sorry about the other lost Panthers.

The new rules for Variable Visibility and Assault have changed everything. In my opinion for the worse. It makes a whole new game? Every campaign or scenario ever played has been altered. It's not the same game anymore.

Ed

[awc]

Gentlemen, I'm sorry but i too have had my hat handed to me when trying to assault hexes. Just assaulted a hex wooded only with no fortifications and was creamed. The space only had a russian anti tank unit in it. First assault with a 3 and a 4 strenth infanty platoons and lost 1 platoon in the assault. Second assault nothing doing, then i fired at it twice to kill it. That is so unrealistic and a complete frustation to me. Ihope you will return the game i used to love back to its original condition.

[MrRoadrunner]

This crap could so easily have been avoided if the assault rules were made optional like the armor facing rules?
 
Then again I heard whispers that armor facing may be a thing of the past too, Wow! Just what the players wanted? No armor facing rule, even if we want it. [&:]
No optional visibility, even if we don't want it. New forced assault rules that alter the game, forced upon us when we don't want them?
 
Please crew of Campaign Series "changers", can you answer the question of armor facing as an option?
You'll help me make decisions faster if I know that visibility, assault style, and armor facing are not going to be optional. [:(]
 
Since there were toggle buttons for optional use of some rules why weren't the visibility and assault changes offered as options? In PBEM opponents can establish which style they want to play and can refuse if they don't like to play in the old style? Gosh, if I started to run out of opponents I may be forced to use it. But, I'd rather it come upon me like that, then in a royal dictate from a few.
Making part of the game engine with no option just stinks. I heard these assault rules were part of the original EF game. When EFII/WF/RS were made they changed the rule to improve it in the game. Now you fall back?
 
Are people who play versus the AI all that numerous? [X(]
 
I'd like to see a show of hands next time the Beta cabal takes a vote on something. [8|]