THE THREAD

[bobogoboom]

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

and Fauklands was a great example of a Navy willing to take a chance in order to beat down a threat. There was not a little bit of hemhawing at the thought of dispersing the BC fleet when most eyes were focused on the North Sea and counting noses but those who risk nothing....win nothing in the end.

I agree, Jellicoe must be the most weak kneed Admiral in recent memory. His fears created menaces everywhere and cost English sailors their lives at Coronel and the Dardanelles. By not wanting any modern ships dispatched from his fleet he essentially "risked nothing".

P.S. I sympathize with your loss and can add no comfort other than to urge you to remember the good times.

yeah but the alternative was beatty who would have gotten his whole fleet sunk out from under him becuase he didn't understand the limits of his ships and the strength of the germans. I feel jellicoe is crucified for being overly caucious when all his job was was to bottle the germans up and not let them get an advantage in sea powere which he did very effectivly. the dardanells campain would not have been won with more battleships they would have just gotten themselves sunk. it needed more lagistics and a hell of a lot more men. it was a badly convieved and even worsly executed affair that should be completely blamed on churchill and his complete lack of respect for the turks and their soldiers

[thegreatwent]

yeah but the alternative was beatty who would have gotten his whole fleet sunk out from under him becuase he didn't understand the limits of his ships and the strength of the germans. I feel jellicoe is crucified for being overly caucious when all his job was was to bottle the germans up and not let them get an advantage in sea powere which he did very effectivly. the dardanells campain would not have been won with more battleships they would have just gotten themselves sunk. it needed more lagistics and a hell of a lot more men. it was a badly convieved and even worsly executed affair that should be completely blamed on churchill and his complete lack of respect for the turks and their soldier

Yikes I recognize that I am now outnumbered 3 to 1. Therefore I will not carry the day. Perhaps I am gullible and just reflect the criticism of Jellicoe, but I do believe his leadership lacked spirit. Imagine if at Coronel even a single Dreadnought had been present? Under that ships umbrella von Speer would have had to either run or engage. An engagement would have been to the Germans disadvantage. To flee would have strained his fleets ability to remain a viable threat do to fuel limits.

Still I confess Jellicoe's job is not one that I would have wanted [:)].

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

P.S. I sympathize with your loss and can add no comfort other than to urge you to remember the good times.

Thx....and to everyone for the kind thoughts. Its been a lousy day having to sit here at work and try not to think about it. This has been helpful.

[bobogoboom]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

well these are the same guys who insisted that Enigma was safe......SAFE i tell you. [:D]

IIRC, they did attempt to place a Uboat picket near Scapa to warn and attack the GF should it emerge.

the germans really lost 2 wars in large part because of there trust in the fact that no one could break their code.

[pasternakski]

Yikes I recognize that I am now outnumbered 3 to 1.

But you have the strength of 10, for your heart is pure.

I agree that Jellicoe might have done better, but can you imagine just maneuvering a fleet that size? Just getting a bunch of ships into a position where they could fire at all was probably far more than I could handle. I remember playing the old AH game the first few times and trying to get the Grand Fleet sorted out and deployed in something resembling a line of battle was terrifically frustrating. Of course, I was a 13-year-old moron then, too (at least I'm not 13 anymore).

Still, a lot of the criticism of Jellicoe stems from the frustration the British felt over their trump card, the Royal Navy, being bested tactically by the hated Hun. Coupled with the stark reality of immense losses and stalemate in France, and somebody had to be the whipping boy.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

Imagine if at Coronel even a single Dreadnought had been present? Under that ships umbrella von Speer would have had to either run or engage. An engagement would have been to the Germans disadvantage. To flee would have strained his fleets ability to remain a viable threat do to fuel limits.

Still I confess Jellicoe's job is not one that I would have wanted [:)].

That was the theory behind Churchill dispatching the Canopus (an old predreadnaught w/ 12' guns. There's conflicting testimony as to the ship's top speed. Its own engineer said 12 knots, supposedly it ran faster after his departure. Craddock decided not to wait for the Canopus because of its lack of speed. From what i remember, the cables from Churchill to Craddock were ambiguous as to whether he was supposed to wait for Canopus or aggressively seek out Scheer.

The Canopus was actually at the Falklands w/ the BCs when Scheer came calling.

[bobogoboom]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

And the Italians unleashed 12 offensives of the Isonzo. A messy bloody affair it was. The AH army did better here mostly on defense. Their offensives against Serbia and Russia under Conrad were disasterous and the Germans quickly realized they would have to prop their "Ally" up to keep them in the war.

yeah the austrians made a mess of serbia and russian but i think if the germans had helped the austrians defeat the serbs in 1915 and then both the austrians and germans had concentraited on the russian it could of been a very diff outcome to the war.

the offensive by the austrians agains the italians did almost knock them out of the war if not for the brilliant offensive by the russians in the south. if the germans had been smart they would have sent reinforcments to the austrian russian line and let the austrians finish their offensive off against the italians the austrians came close to cutting of the entire easter italian army.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

Yikes I recognize that I am now outnumbered 3 to 1. Therefore I will not carry the day. Perhaps I am gullible and just reflect the criticism of Jellicoe, but I do believe his leadership lacked spirit. Imagine if at Coronel even a single Dreadnought had been present? Under that ships umbrella von Speer would have had to either run or engage. An engagement would have been to the Germans disadvantage. To flee would have strained his fleets ability to remain a viable threat do to fuel limits.

Still I confess Jellicoe's job is not one that I would have wanted [:)].

If you havn't yet picked it up, i'd highly recommend Masse's "Castles of Steel" In addition to analysis of Jellicoe and his leadership, it also covers the other major players and how naval strategy developed and played out during the war.

Coronel - Hmm, well sending a single and highly valuable Dreadnought battleship would probably have been seen as the height of folly by all the Sea Lords not to mention the other powers. All it really would have done is burn a hell of alot of coal and acomplished little due to it's slow speed. As it was, Craddock did have a "battleship" available to bolster him, the old Canopus but he left the ship behind....IIRC, due to an erronious report by the ship's engineer who lost his nerve that the ship's engines were out of commission. Had he kept Canopus with him, Spee might have taken discretion as the better part of valor.

The sending of a couple battlecruisers though....that was the best decision.....it was the job they were designed to do originally.....outgun and outpace any weaker cruiser vs. the later catch-22 of having to square off against like ships.

[bobogoboom]

well this has been fun[:D]

[anarchyintheuk]

I remember playing Jutland as a 12 or 13 year old moron as well. [;)] It was hard to develop a realistic command and control system, especially considering how fubared the Grand Fleets communications were that day. My neighbor and I came up w/ 1d6 for Beatty actually listening to you. If you didn't make the roll you had another 1d6 for which direction and how far Beatty went off the course commanded. I don't think we ever finished it.

[bobogoboom]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
If you havn't yet picked it up, i'd highly recommend Masse's "Castles of Steel" In addition to analysis of Jellicoe and his leadership, it also covers the other major players and how naval strategy developed and played out during the war.

great book i am about a quarter of the way through it. i want to read dreadnought next.

[thegreatwent]

I have enjoyed both Massie's books. Currently I am reading "The Rules of the Game" by Andrew Gordon. It is dry compared to Massie but the book seems well done.
The Canopus was not a dreadnought and was too slow. A true dreadnought with the fleet would have put the ball in Spee's court IMO.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
If you havn't yet picked it up, i'd highly recommend Masse's "Castles of Steel" In addition to analysis of Jellicoe and his leadership, it also covers the other major players and how naval strategy developed and played out during the war.

great book i am about a quarter of the way through it. i want to read dreadnought next.

Dreadnought is also excellent. I devoured the pages. Amazingly interesting history of the close knit and complicated relationships all the royal houses had with each other and how it all cascaded into what became WWI.

[DuckofTindalos]

This was a proper, old-school Threadite discussion. Had he been here, Robert would have been proud.

[bobogoboom]

that or he would of had a heart attack because i started a normal rational discussion about something other than alcohol[:'(]

[thegreatwent]

Bobo, you constantly make me laugh out loud. And yes you have gone contrary to your stereotype. [:D]

[bobogoboom]

i try to bring a little humor to the thread.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

The Canopus was not a dreadnought and was too slow. A true dreadnought with the fleet would have put the ball in Spee's court IMO.

It still had big guns and the decision would still have been Speer's to engage. Oddly, had the Canopus joined Craddock it would have been very similar to an incident in WW2 w/ S&G's descendent's veering off vs. engaging one of the R classes.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
If you havn't yet picked it up, i'd highly recommend Masse's "Castles of Steel" In addition to analysis of Jellicoe and his leadership, it also covers the other major players and how naval strategy developed and played out during the war.

great book i am about a quarter of the way through it. i want to read dreadnought next.

Dreadnought is also excellent. I devoured the pages. Amazingly interesting history of the close knit and complicated relationships all the royal houses had with each other and how it all cascaded into what became WWI.

I'm really glad I read "Castles of Steel". It cured me of my hero-worshipping of Churchill.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom



great book i am about a quarter of the way through it. i want to read dreadnought next.

Dreadnought is also excellent. I devoured the pages. Amazingly interesting history of the close knit and complicated relationships all the royal houses had with each other and how it all cascaded into what became WWI.

I'm really glad I read "Castles of Steel". It cured me of my hero-worshipping of Churchill.

Dardanelles didn't?