Base X air missions canceled due to poor weather - AGAIN!

[Armorer]

Greetings,

Let me say in advance that I apologize if this comes across as if I'm upset with the game or don't consider it a superior product. Far from it - this is easily the finest wargame I've ever played. It rates a 9.5 right out of the box.
That being said, I do have a gripe or two which don't seem to be getting a lot of discussion on these boards. The most important concerns the message above - i'm seeing it too often. Playing scenario 14, as the Allies, I had been playing for several game months, and it just seemed as though weather was having an inordinately serious effect on conduct of air ops, so I started keeping track of the number of times Port Moresby's air ops were canceled.
Beginning 1 December and ending January 31, I kept a record of every time PM's ops were canceled due to poor weather. That's a total of 62 days, with 1 morning and 1 afternoon phase in each day, for a total of 124 phases being tracked. During that time, PM's air ops were canceled exactly 62 times (phases), with 17 days having both phases canceled, and one or the other being canceled on 28 others. That's phases, not the number of missions which were unable to find their target because of weather. In case I'm not being clear enough, let me say it again: Exactly 50% of my largest air bases missions were canceled, over a two month period, because of weather.
I only kept track of the missions canceled at PM, but it doesn't seem as if Lunga or any other base is any different. Lunga seems to get socked in just as often as PM; by the same token, it seems as if I see the same happening to Rabaul, so I don't think the AI 'cheats' or anything like that.

I'm no expert on the weather in the region, but a 50% mission cancellation rate seems rather high, especially since if all missions are cancelled, ALL missions are cancelled, including LR CAP. This can be very painful if you want to conduct amphibious ops, and are depending on land-based fighters for CAP. It's not a lot of fun to lose 6 APs to a couple dozen Bettys out of Rabaul, just because the P-38's at PM decided it was raining a little too hard to get out of bed this morning. Just seems to me that shutting down a base the size of PM (size 9) for an entire 6 to 8 hour phase would require quite a bit of weather.
Again, I'm not trying to bash the game, just want to see what everyone else thinks - has anyone read any histories of the period which described weather having such a large impact on air ops? If not, maybe this is something to be looked at for the next patch?

Regards,
Randy

[mogami]

Hi, I know what you are saying. The weather must be paid attention to and sometimes even on generally clear turns a base gets shut down. This can really hurt other operations or help them (I try to move TF that must traverse enemy LBA zones in bad weather) I was able to move a transport TF all the way from Rabaul to Port Moresby once and only suffered one air attack while the weather shut down PM or resulted in strikes unable to locate target (1 CL damaged and had to return to Rabaul remaining ships unloaded PM and captured base.)
I have seen massive airstrikes in rain or thunderstorms and cancelled ops in clear. It's beyond our control and must be taken into account. I feel the weather plays one of the major roles in the game. (Since it has helped me as much as harmed me I won't complain) (Except I will advise never to count on it ethier way)]
I would like just a little more info on local weather every day.
prehaps little letters like for shallow/deep water. Hit a F key and local weather conditions for each hex displayed. Most likely would require a major code change to add.

[Avenger]

It would be nice if clear weather and thunderstorms were the exact weather for the entire theater. We could have forecasts and base our ops on the forecast.

--Avenger

[msaario]

I second that "f" key idea. We should be able to see a full, local weather map in the game. I wonder why this was not part of the original design?

How can you have the same weather all over the map (if I understood Avenger correctly)? It's gotta be local weather. There is a weather system down there, but it should give more info to the player - it has major effect on the gameplay.

--Mikko

[Raverdave]

Let me put your minds at rest in reagrds to the PM weather......the clouds over there have rocks in them! Trying to get across the Ranges when flying north, aircraft oftern have to fly low and follow the valleys........and that is in thsi day and age....imagine what it was like in '42 with poor navigation systems. I do not find it surprising at all that you are having so much trouble with the weather.

[Spooky]

Originally posted by Avenger
It would be nice if clear weather and thunderstorms were the exact weather for the entire theater. We could have forecasts and base our ops on the forecast.

--Avenger

In 1942 :rolleyes: Weather forecasts were rather unreliable - especially in the sub-tropical areas such as the UV theater.

[Slaughtermeyer]

The rainy season in Papua New Guinea is from December until March. If the pattern of mission cancellations persists into the May to October period which is the dry season, I'd say there is a problem with weather accuracy.

[dgaad]

Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer
The rainy season in Papua New Guinea is from December until March. If the pattern of mission cancellations persists into the May to October period which is the dry season, I'd say there is a problem with weather accuracy.

Sounds like the game is simulating this aspect correctly, since your test was in the middle of the rainy season. I quote slaughtermeyer for reference, he seems to know the seasons in NG.

[Sonny]

I would be happier if the chances of weather at any base or TF would be more in line with what the weather predictions are. It seems like this is more random than it should be. On one CLEAR day I had missions cancelled at Lunga, PM, GiliGili, Rennel Island and Lae. Really seems like too much. 'Spose it could happen but it really seems odd.

It does make the game a little more tense however, so I guess it is not all bad.

[von Murrin]

Put one of these in PM and watch your AG's strike until they drop. My last count was 3/4 of assigned strikes actually conducted.

[Sonny]

Originally posted by von Murrin
Put one of these in PM and watch your AG's strike until they drop. My last count was 3/4 of assigned strikes actually conducted.

Guess they need some of the brass to kick their butts and get them flying.

[Armorer]

Now that is something I hadn't considered. I'll move 5th AF there post-haste. In the meantime, since, despite PM's unwillingness to bomb the crap out of the AI whenever I wanted it, the scenario is long since won, so I have started #17. I'm still going to keep track of number of cancellations, as I do feel it happens too often. Note, that I don't necessarily think it's all bad when an air base's missions are cancelled, as UV ( in common with almost all wargames ), is too bloody already, and mission cancellations tend to help keep that under control. My biggest complaint with it is as I stated earlier - LR CAP. It's tough to conduct amphibious ops knowing that 50% of the time, your APs and AKs are going to be exposed to the tender mercies of the other guys LBA, which seemingly is never grounded when your guys are. And I just have a hard time picturing a group of fighter drivers knowing that the 1st and 2nd Marine Divs are 120 miles up the Slot, completely defenseless, and the fighter jocks decide it's raining too hard at Henderson Field to go out and play. Imagine the butt-chewing that MAG commander would get from Halsey.

[dgaad]

Originally posted by Sonny
I would be happier if the chances of weather at any base or TF would be more in line with what the weather predictions are. It seems like this is more random than it should be. On one CLEAR day I had missions cancelled at Lunga, PM, GiliGili, Rennel Island and Lae. Really seems like too much. 'Spose it could happen but it really seems odd.

It does make the game a little more tense however, so I guess it is not all bad.

Sonny : are you aware of just how huge an area is being represented here?

What if the entire weather for the entire United States could be summed up by one of five choices : Clear, Partly Cloudy, Overcast, Rain, and Thunderstorms? How accurate would this be for the East Coast? The Midwest? Florida? You could have a typhoon in one area, a band of thunderstorms 1000 miles long, and bright and sunny over 3/4s of the US.

[Jagger2002]

You have two types of weather-warm/cold fronts and convective activity. Fronts are fairly predictable and cover long and contiguous areas. Convective activity, such as thunderstorms, can show up anywhere and everywhere dependent on local conditions.

The predictability of fronts are missing. Fronts move from point A to Pt B typically at a set speed. Naval activity can use fronts for cover because of the predictability.

The way UV is set up for weather is reflective of convective activity but not fronts.

[von Murrin]

Originally posted by Armorer
My biggest complaint with it is as I stated earlier - LR CAP. It's tough to conduct amphibious ops knowing that 50% of the time, your APs and AKs are going to be exposed to the tender mercies of the other guys LBA, which seemingly is never grounded when your guys are. And I just have a hard time picturing a group of fighter drivers knowing that the 1st and 2nd Marine Divs are 120 miles up the Slot, completely defenseless, and the fighter jocks decide it's raining too hard at Henderson Field to go out and play. Imagine the butt-chewing that MAG commander would get from Halsey.

I strongly suspect the strength and durability of LRCAP is directly linked to range and has little or nothing to do with the weather. Try this:

1. Edit Operation Cartweel to include some IJN CV's.
2. Start it hotseat.
3. Experiment with different ranges for different a/c on LRCAP.

I'm willing to bet a CV (:D) that range is everything.

[Sonny]

Originally posted by dgaad


Sonny : are you aware of just how huge an area is being represented here?

What if the entire weather for the entire United States could be summed up by one of five choices : Clear, Partly Cloudy, Overcast, Rain, and Thunderstorms? How accurate would this be for the East Coast? The Midwest? Florida? You could have a typhoon in one area, a band of thunderstorms 1000 miles long, and bright and sunny over 3/4s of the US.

No, I can't get on to mapquest to find out how big the area of the game covers.

If the weather prediction for the U.S. is clear what would be the chances of L.A., Denver, Chicago, New York and Atlanta having weather bad enough to cancel air operations?:)

[Mark W Carver]

Originally posted by Armorer
[ Exactly 50% of my largest air bases missions were canceled, over a two month period, because of weather.
I only kept track of the missions canceled at PM, but it doesn't seem as if Lunga or any other base is any different. Lunga seems to get socked in just as often as PM; by the same token, it seems as if I see the same happening to Rabaul, so I don't think the AI 'cheats' or anything like that.

How do you really know it's 50%? Did you count the days that the Japs did not move any naval units, thus your LBA that was set to naval strike don't have any targets.

You kept track of those that had flown, attempted to fly, but what about those that COULD HAVE flown, but there was no viable target. Thus that 50% would be much smaller.

[Armorer]

Greetings,

Actually, the number of cancellations would probably exceed 50%. I kept track only of the number of times that I received the message "Port Moresby air missions canceled due to poor weather." If I received a message in the morning, I noted it, and if I received it in the evening phase, I noted that. Thus, ONLY when I received the message, was I sure that the base's missions had been canceled. So, in reality, I'm sure that, as you said, there were instances where PM was socked in, but I had no missions scheduled, so perhaps didn't receive the message. As far as Rabaul, as I stated, it SEEMS to be affecting the Japs as well as my bases. I've not kept track of the message for any Japanese bases, so am not sure of their status.

Regards,
Randy