unrealistic air combat...

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: ILCK


Yep the IJN ran a successful night op and they never did it again and the USN never made any mention anywhere of it and no historian has found any evidence of such a raid from interviewing veterans on both sides or from the documents. That's likely to have happened.

Some-one else who can't read!! SEE PREVIOUS POST.

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: Kingfisher


You are thinking too far down the chain of command. Both sides devoted considerable resources to evaluating the opposition's tactics and equipment, but these intelligence types were a couple of rungs further up the ladder than the average airbase support grunt.

Even more reason why it's unlikely. All info has to come from the bottom up unless it is personally gathered.

[DEB]

To answer some points made at various timesby varius people :-

1. Night-time navigation during early WW2 was done by:

a) Celestial Navigation
b) Dead Reckoning
c) Radio Navigation

A) Navigation by the Planets & the Stars, as used by ALL Navies at night, in conjuction with B.
B) As described by IKE99 previously. Plot a course ( degrees ) and use your charts & speed.
C) In two forms, one of which ( ADF ) was used by the Japs.

This system was in use by the US WAVES during the war and did not use anything ( A & B ) that the Japs did not have or know.

2. From :- http://www.pacificwrecks.com/people/veterans/kudo.html

The Tainan Kokutai was renamed the 251st Kokutai in early 1943. In May of that year they received two J1N1 Gekko (Irving) nightfighters armed with upward and downward firing 20mm cannons. Flying from Lakunai Airfield near Rabaul, Kudo was the first to test the aircraft in combat, flying with Lt. (jg) Akira Sugawara as observer. He would become the first night fighter ace on either side of the Pacific War. Satoru Ono also flew from Rabaul.

June 26, 1943
Shot down two B-17s, firing from below using 164 rounds of 20mm ammunition.

July 7, 1943
Took off for an evening patrol from Ballale flying with Akira Sugawara as observer. Thie Gekko used its two downward pointing 20mm cannons (on other occasion he had used the guns that pointed upwards). This would have required Kudo to approach the Hudson unseen from above and behind and then firing when in position 30 degrees above the Hudson's fore-aft axis (allowing for deflection).

Claims in C5M Babs
1. B-17 by aerial burst bomb (August 29, 1942)
P. B-17 by aerial burst bomb (August 29, 1942)

Claims in J1N1 Gekko
P. B-24 (June 30, 1943) possibly 42-40254 307th BG, MACR 30

Confirmed Night Fighter Victories
1 . B-17E "Honi Kuu Okole" 41-9244 (May 21, 1943)
2 . B-17E 41-9011 (May 21, 1943)
3 . B-17E "Georgia Peach" 41-24454 (June 13, 1943)
4 . B-17E "Naughty But Nice" 41-2430 (June 26, 1943)
5. B-17F "Taxpayers Pride" 41-24448 (June 26, 1943)
6. B-17F "Pluto" 41-24543 (June 30, 1943)
7. RNZAF A-28 Hudson NZ2033 (July 7, 1943) observer Sugiwara

So the Japs did night fighter combat before the USA & in our time frame.

3. In Europe, the British choose to do night raids to minimise the losses on their aircraft from enemy fire, dispite the increases in OPS losses, and the lessening of the effectiveness of their bomb hits. The USA, on the other hand choose to maximise the damage caused by making daylight raids only, despite the high losses to enemy AA & aircraft. In the Pacific, the USA initially choose night raids, but when they learned that the Japs had a night fighter capacity, they switched to day raids.

[Kingfisher]

ORIGINAL: DEB
You don't really read this thread do you? No-one has "claimed" a level of success in Night carrier OPS!

If launching 50+ planes from a carrier, forming up, navigating to the target (in formation), executing an attack, reforming for the flight home, navigating back to the carrier and then landing at night does not fit into your definition of a successful mission then what pray tell is?

Some people here think that no-one took off or landed ( at night ) on a carrier before 1944.

Some people here have a problem providing any factual evidence

[Nomad]

I have another view:

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: DEB
varius people

One of the most popular Roman emperors of his time, but rather unknown today.

[Kingfisher]

ORIGINAL: DEB

ORIGINAL: Kingfisher


You are thinking too far down the chain of command. Both sides devoted considerable resources to evaluating the opposition's tactics and equipment, but these intelligence types were a couple of rungs further up the ladder than the average airbase support grunt.

Even more reason why it's unlikely. All info has to come from the bottom up unless it is personally gathered.

So it's your opinion that a major strike on an airbase would not be reported?

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: DEB
All info has to come from the bottom up unless it is personally gathered.

In other words, @$$holes are the best source of knowledge.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: DEB
Navigation by the Planets & the Stars

Wasn't this the name of Cat Stevens's last album ... before he became Yusuf Osama bin Islam Obama?

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: DEB
use your charts & speed.

Now, now, charts are okay, but we gotta be careful advocating drug use around here.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: DEB
Thie Gekko used its two downward pointing 20mm cannons (on other occasion he had used the guns that pointed upwards).

This kind of confusion is why I will never buy auto insurance from a lizard.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: DEB
You don't really read this thread do you?

Why would anyone in his right mind want to do that?

[tocaff]

........and on and on.............

[mdiehl]

So the Japs did night fighter combat before the USA & in our time frame.

That is incorrect. The USAAF deployed its first night-fighter units in the PTO in February, 1943, with detachments from the 6th PG flying P-70s sent to Port Moresby and Guadalcanal during that month.

[mdiehl]

Claims in C5M Babs
1. B-17 by aerial burst bomb (August 29, 1942)
P. B-17 by aerial burst bomb (August 29, 1942)

Claims in J1N1 Gekko
P. B-24 (June 30, 1943) possibly 42-40254 307th BG, MACR 30

Confirmed Night Fighter Victories
1 . B-17E "Honi Kuu Okole" 41-9244 (May 21, 1943)
2 . B-17E 41-9011 (May 21, 1943)
3 . B-17E "Georgia Peach" 41-24454 (June 13, 1943)
4 . B-17E "Naughty But Nice" 41-2430 (June 26, 1943)
5. B-17F "Taxpayers Pride" 41-24448 (June 26, 1943)
6. B-17F "Pluto" 41-24543 (June 30, 1943)
7. RNZAF A-28 Hudson NZ2033 (July 7, 1943) observer Sugiwara

Those claims are worthless unless you can confirm the loss of those bombers in USAAF records.

[Ike99]

The Tainan Kokutai was renamed the 251st Kokutai in early 1943. In May of that year they received two J1N1 Gekko (Irving) nightfighters armed with upward and downward firing 20mm cannons. Flying from Lakunai Airfield near Rabaul, Kudo was the first to test the aircraft in combat, flying with Lt. (jg) Akira Sugawara as observer. He would become the first night fighter ace on either side of the Pacific War. Satoru Ono also flew from Rabaul.

Didn´t know this.

So shouldn´t CF have a few Japanese night fighters then?

Those claims are worthless unless you can confirm the loss of those bombers in USAAF records.

I would think these kills are confirmed as it list the serial number of the planes claimed along with nickname.

Wasn't this the name of Cat Stevens's last album ... before he became Yusuf Osama bin Islam Obama?

?

[Nomad]

Cat Stevens wiki

[mdiehl]

I would think these kills are confirmed as it list the serial number of the planes claimed along with nickname.

I don't believe any "confirmed kills" if there is a unit record available for the unit whose plane was allegedly shot down. If some history has examined the unit record for the unit whose plane was allegedly shot down and matches a "confirmed kill" to a plane that did not return, that meets a good standard.

[Ike99]

and another view...

[JeffroK]

Of course, even if the aircraft was lost on that date it could have fallen to AAA or accident (Ops Loss)
This would still allow  the aircraft wrekeage to be examined.
 
I'd doubt the one's claimed by bomb from the Babs, but 7 in 6-7 weeks isnt too bad. Even allowing for 2 lots of 2 in 1 night. I'm an Fighter pilots claims sceptic but I dont think these are too bad, now 18 in 1 day!!!!
 
Worth more investigation!