Historical OOBs

[Jim D Burns]

I wanted to get across my point of how underpowered the economies are in game right now (at least in my view). Below are some very rough OOB’s I cropped together from several different sources online and some books I have at home (WWII A Statistical Survey, and War Without Garlands). These are thrown together very quickly and are not even close to exhaustive OOB’s, so I’m sure there are plenty of glaring errors.

I myself found several sources that contradicted the numbers I have here, but the general point I wanted to make was the same in all cases. The main difference in the sources seems to stem from how they chose to group formations and how large of a geographical area they used to pull data from.

Poland Campaign

German Army

German army group north:

Reserve troops:
1 pz div
3 inf divs

4th army:
1 pz div
2 mot divs
6 inf divs

3rd army:
1 pz div
1 mot div
7 inf divs

German army group south:

Reserve troops:
1 mountain div
5 inf divs


8th army:
1 mot div
4 inf divs

10th army:
2 pz divs
2 mot divs
9 inf divs

14th army:
2 pz divs
1 mot div
2 mountain divs
7 inf divs


Slovakian army
3 inf divs

Polish OOB:

Karpaty Army:
1 mountain div

Krakow Army:
1 mountain div
1 Cav div
5 inf divs

Lublin Army:
1 mot div

Lodz Army:
1 cav div
4 inf divs

Modlin Army:
1 cav div
2 inf divs

Pomorze Army:
1 cav div
5 inf divs

Poznan Army:
1 cav div
4 inf divs

Prusy Army:
1 cav div
8 inf divs

Warsaw Army:
11 inf divs

Wyszków Operational Group:
3 inf divs

Narew Independent Operational Group:
1 cav div
2 inf divs

Total forces for Polish campaign:
German:
7 pz divs
7 mot divs
3 mountain divs
44 inf divs (3 Slovak)

Polish:
1 mot div
2 mountain divs
7 cav divs
44 inf divs


Barbarossa OOB

German:

Army Group North:
3 pz divs
2 mot divs
1pzGr div (Hoepner)
21 inf divs

Army Group Center:
9 pz divs
6 mot divs
1cav div
2 PzGr divs (Hoth, Guderian)
33 inf divs

Army Group South:
5 pz divs
2 mot divs
1 pzGr div (Kleist)
32 inf divs

Reserve:
2 pz divs
20 inf divs

Romanians:
14 inf divs

Hungarian:
2inf divs

Italian:
2infdivs

Russia:

Baltic MD:
6 tank divs
20 inf divs

Western MD:
10 tank divs
26 inf divs

Kiev MD:
26 tank divs
30 inf divs

Odessa MD:
2 tank divs
12 inf divs

These are just the most western troops along the border with Germany. Russia is estimated to have a total of 230-240 divisions in service throughout the country when Barbarossa began.

Total forces along border for Barbarossa:
German:
19 pz divs
10 mot divs
4 PzGr divs
124 inf divs (including allies)

Russia:
44 tank divs
88 inf divs


For the Poles, I approximated division strength by assuming 2 brigades = 1 division. In most cases I simply left out odd numbered brigades, it took at least 2 brigades before I would assign 1 div.

Now these are just the forces in the immediate area of battle, there were considerable additional forces in both Germany and Russia not included in the numbers here.

As you can see, the historical standing armies were far larger than those we have in game at present. And the build-up of force from the time of the Polish campaign to operation Barbarossa more than doubled Germany’s starting 1939 army.

This feat cannot be achieved with the current low production values in game. And no way can Russia build 150 divisions, let alone 200 or more to get to its historical OOB.

Now I understand this is an open ended game and players shouldn’t be forced to play with a strict historical OOB. But I think the game should at least give players the ability to achieve what was achieved historically if they wish. Right now this cannot be achieved in game, so that leaves a question.

Is it a WWII game or just a strategy game with a WWII theme? I personally would prefer to at least be able to try and mimic historic accomplishments if I can.

Jim

[Severian]

Polish OoB - almost good.

Karpaty Army - ok
Krakow Army - ok, but Mountain Div. in fact was normal infantry.
Lublin Army - mobilised after 1.09.39. Contained 1 inf, 1 tank brigade and few cavalry units.
Lodz Army - 5 inf. 1 cav
Modlin Army - 1 inf. 1 cav and garrisons of Modlin, Różan, Płock, Pułtusk, Zegrze and Wyszogród - maybe 1 inf., but I'm not quite sure.
Pomorze Army - 4 inf. 1 cav and many smaller units like armoured trains or National Defense Battalions
Poznan Army - ok
Prusy Army - 6 inf. 1 cav. 2 regiments of heavy artillery
Warsaw Army - mobilised 8.09.39
Wyszkow Operational Group - ok
Narew Independent Operational Group - ok, additional some fortress units

and two Operational Gruops you missed:
Kutno Operational Group - 2 inf.
Tarnow Operational Group - 2 inf.
additional - Sea Defense Group - about 1 inf.
and weak division of Border Defense Corps under command general Orlik-Rückeman


Sorry for my english. I know, it's not good. I'm also from Wastelands-Interactive and it's my first post on Matrix forum

[doomtrader]

Hi Jim,
 
Great post, I see you have prepared well.
Indeed, OoB is not strictly historical. We are trying to find this thin compromise line between historical accuracy nad playability.
It is very important for us to know your feelings and impressions about it. It will help us to polish [;)] the game.
 
OTOH, I heard that AI is not a stand for you in any game [;)]