Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game

[sabre1]

+1 Veldor

[panzers]

ORIGINAL: Veldor

If WiF fails us I fear all hope is lost...
We are done for...

Veldor. I don't lmow that you have looked at the WiF forum, but if you did, I don't think you would have much doubt that this project is being as done as professionally as you will ever see a game desigm. What makes this game so unique is he has assembled some of the hardest core WiF players from all over the world to help him on this projrct. I highly suggest you go to that forum and and take a look see what is going on in there. To say there are things going on in there that us unique to all of matrix's gaming is a terrible understatement. The game itself had been around close to 25 years now and it is aleays getting updated. It is withought question outside of maybe the ASL games the most intensly complicated game of all time., and the people who play this game religiously have put in a lot of their time to assist Steve in getting this out around Christmastime. Never in all my years of game playing have I seen such intense attention to detail. This game when it comes out will be the most heavily researched game by far ever in the history of the gaming industry because we have a worldeide fraternity that is stopping at nothing to ensure thuis thing comes out right and the first time. There will eventually be several add ons later but for now, we have so many volinteers helping Steve out in this project because we, more than anyone know what is at stake here. And what is at stake is something that should make WiTP like a monopoly game compared to this one. I don't know ghow many counters are in WiTP, but In MWiF there will be over 8600 of them, and that is not even close to be all of them. If you were to read all the pages of the game itself, it would be in excess of a thousanf pages when you factor in all the expansions that can come with it If you were to compare the two, then think of it this way, Everything you get in WiTP you pretty much get in MWiF, except you have to add the same complexity and detail the the entire world map, and as we all know, the european sector was much more complex tham the pacific. So everything is going to work out just fine. they have assembled the best team you could possibly have for a wargame such as this and everyone is working so well together. It is actually quite extrairdinary and being put together in a way that no game ever has done before. So keep the faith. This one is the real deal and If you were to look at all the postings on the WiF forim, you will probably rest a lot easier that this game is being put together the right way. It's nice to know that we have people who jave played this game, some of them for all 25 years, so they know all the nuiances of the game and that is a great help to Steve over there in matrix games
I will be taking several pictures of the upcaming con starting this weekend and will try to post them daily so that you can see what goes on in these games.
We're looking at about 30 to 50 people from all over the world to be at this convention, so that will mean 6 - 10 tables of games going on at once.

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: Veldor

My loss I'm sure but I wonder how much harder it will be to learn it... to risk money on it... and to spend the $100+ people are talking about.

Well, that is the thing I find to be Matrixgames' best sell point. If you have a problem, come to the forum and you will get help. Hey you will not even be called n00b!

And MWiF will have tutorials that should explain everything you need and hopefully then some.
It's gonna be sweet.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: panzers

When it does come out, Joe, you will see that WiF is truly going to be the grandaddy of all war games for many years to come. You start playing this one and you will never be asking this question again

Perhaps, but the problem remains that we may never live to see it. It must certainly hold the record for the longest time in development.

Besides, I have yet to be convinced. From my perspective it never caught on with my boardgame group who played foure other gmaes in it's genre to death: Third Reich, WWII, ETO/PTO and Krieg. We just never found WIF to measure up to the others.

[Tagwyn]

Soon? What means soon? Been waiting for this even forever? L3

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Veldor
But what's still clearly lacking to me is my all-time favorite.... Turn-Based Tactical WWII. Where are my 6 choices there?!?! Lock 'n Load comes closer to completing a minimum lineup but still, based on WWII Grand Strategy Counts you should have 3 or 4 similar tactical titles like that by now...

Hm - Steel Panthers: World at War, John Tiller's Campaign Series, Panzer Command are the top three in the turn-based tactical WWII category. The first two are classics, the third is an entirely new 3D effort and all IMHO are great games. Have you tried all of those?

[simovitch]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

...I think CEAW is a good successor to SC as far as great fun factor, better looks but more realism, as is SC2.

I downloaded the demo - it definitely has more graphic appeal than any of the others in it's genre and will probably be my next purchase.

[Neilster]

I've no game at all to play in that category. It's so sad really. I still cry out for ASL some nights . If only Matrix would finally rescue me from that by finishing Lock'n Load and other WWII Tactical Games...

On the original note it will be interesting to see how many people actually buy MWiF... I get this awful feeling like only those who have knowledge of the board game will buy it. Though I've owned hundreds if not a thousand board games.. I never owned or played that one... My loss I'm sure but I wonder how much harder it will be to learn it... to risk money on it... and to spend the $100+ people are talking about.

I can completely understand though. Having played ASL I'd pay $250 easily for a faithful PC conversion. But try getting the non-initiated to even consider that...

No, I think its going to have to be $70-$80 at an extreme to have any chance. But who knows.. I guess if its really perfect upon release they could garner $99 out of me.. I still don't see $100+ though, unless it was some sort of collectors edition with a cloth map and what not [:D]

From my selfish perspective I can think of all kinds of things it should have (learning tutorials to teach at least 50% of the rules and not just bare bones basics, strategy guide to give newbies some clue how to proceed, toggles to turn off ridiculously mundane and monatenous micromanagement tasks to make the game play faster, etc.) but given how extremely complicated the game is in the first place I'll drop all requirements and just ask for a mostly bug-free Vista-capable game that I can actually play before this time next year. [:D]

I'm not privy to inside info re price (if there even is any yet) but more than $100 sounds unlikely.

About learning MWiF...

1. There will be extensive tutorials, designed to help newbies into MWiF. Some already exist so if you're keen you can start now. Extensive strategy guides for the boardgame exist and will basically be relevant but I'm sure strategy guides will be included.

2. It'll be easier to learn than the boardgame. So much stuff will be done for you that you'll be able to concentrate on the core mechanics (which will be pretty familiar to most wargamers anyway).

3. Apart from the automated rule checking and book-keeping, much of the complication is confined to the end of turns and is stepped through sequentially and logically. Again, the CPU will do most of the work here.

4. I learned board World in Flames by myself and it was only my second wargame. Now, it took some effort but I'm no genius, so with your experience I wouldn't worry at all. Most of the game is taken up with phases (a wave of Axis, then Allied movement) of grand operational manoeuvring that, due to the sheer scale of the game, has a strangely "tactical" feel.

For the above reasons and since it's such a faithful conversion of a tried and true and award-winning boardgame, I don't think there's much risk. I've never seen such attention to detail in game development. Playtesting should be extensive, as it has been occurring on the working components for many months, with Steve gradually fixing bugs and fleshing out the game.

There will be automatic settings to reduce micro-management and because of the mostly corps-level/air-fleet/capital ship (or flotilla of smaller vessels) scale, the number of potential units to move is not ludicrously high.

I don't want to break this page so hit this link for a bit of an example of this...hopefully [;)]

tm.asp?m=915054&mpage=43&key=#

Cheers, Neilster

[GJK]

As mentioned elsewhere, I'm beta testing Computer War in Europe II (Decision Games) and am really impressed with what that will offer. What it doesn't offer however is an AI. It will be an excellent Pbem program though (and solo of course). I'm also very much looking forward to MWiF. I have some iteration of the boardgame but never had the chance to learn to play it. I will be very interested to see if an AI can even be programmed for something on such a grand scale that will provide a decent game (or if it will be more for learning the game and then when you want to really "play" you play against another human).

[Titanwarrior89]

Witp hands down.  If you go with global, then it would be GGWAWD.

[jnier]

ORIGINAL: GJK

As mentioned elsewhere, I'm beta testing Computer War in Europe II (Decision Games) and am really impressed with what that will offer. What it doesn't offer however is an AI. It will be an excellent Pbem program though (and solo of course). I'm also very much looking forward to MWiF. I have some iteration of the boardgame but never had the chance to learn to play it. I will be very interested to see if an AI can even be programmed for something on such a grand scale that will provide a decent game (or if it will be more for learning the game and then when you want to really "play" you play against another human).

I've been waiting for CWIE2 for years. Do you have an ETA for it?

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: panzers

When it does come out, Joe, you will see that WiF is truly going to be the grandaddy of all war games for many years to come. You start playing this one and you will never be asking this question again

Perhaps, but the problem remains that we may never live to see it. It must certainly hold the record for the longest time in development.

Besides, I have yet to be convinced. From my perspective it never caught on with my boardgame group who played foure other gmaes in it's genre to death: Third Reich, WWII, ETO/PTO and Krieg. We just never found WIF to measure up to the others.

It has to be remembered that the computer port of World in Flames has always been a one-man project, first by Chris and then Steve, with quite a long hiatus in between. Since Steve took it over there has been consistent progress and religiously regular contact and consultation with the fan-base.

The latest news re a delay is a bit disappointing but it's just that the task is huge and with software development it's difficult to accurately predict timelines. Importantly, Steve doesn't want to sacrifice quality.

As to which is the best strategic WW2 boardgame...each to their own...but there's a large school of thought that WiF built on the best aspects of those that came before and many, many gamers consider it to be the best, especially at modelling the global/economic nature of the conflict. I've found that when you're familiar with one system, it's tough for a new one to appeal, despite its quality.

Cheers, Neilster

[canton]

I´ve no real favorit; actually iam playing alot of toaw but this isn´t really grand strategy. Iam looking forward to WiF and Computer War in Europe.

[Lützow]

I've yet to see a better WW2 Grand Strategy Title than HoI 2. Maybe World in Flames will do it.

WitP and TOAW 3 are both great games, but more on the operational side.

[Peter Fisla]

WitP, what a monster! Though a very playable monster

[GJK]

ORIGINAL: jnier

ORIGINAL: GJK

As mentioned elsewhere, I'm beta testing Computer War in Europe II (Decision Games) and am really impressed with what that will offer. What it doesn't offer however is an AI. It will be an excellent Pbem program though (and solo of course). I'm also very much looking forward to MWiF. I have some iteration of the boardgame but never had the chance to learn to play it. I will be very interested to see if an AI can even be programmed for something on such a grand scale that will provide a decent game (or if it will be more for learning the game and then when you want to really "play" you play against another human).

I've been waiting for CWIE2 for years. Do you have an ETA for it?

This is an "unofficial" statement, but per Karl Lean (developer) he has the final code just about ready for submission to Decision Games. When they release it though depends on their pipeline. His email made it sound that it could be quite soon.

[IanF1966]

Ironically, for me, the greatest WW2 Grand Strategy Game exists-but it is within several games and does not exist alone yet, as a single title.

The greatest WW2 Strategy game has:

-The detail, research, standard features and parameters of Hearts Of Iron Armageddon (without the bugs)
-The look, GUI, 3-D Sprites, economics, ease of playability and moddability of Making History
-The minute single-soldier & supply/logistics details of War In The Pacific (which a player could choose optionally, or work on the 'grand' level)
-All of Pacific Storm/PS Allies features

[hjaco]

Two good arguments to play WIF is first it has been around for many years being improved and fine tuned. I bought my first boardgame version of it around 90'. Most of changes to the system has been brought around by requests from players and during the years it has been developed quite a lot.

The second reason is of a more practical nature. You need someone to play your games with and with WIF you are guaranteed a large global community playing WIF with many experienced players to choose from. An add on to this is immense volumes of player and strategy guides etc accumulated during the years.

[Veldor]

Veldor. I don't lmow that you have looked at the WiF forum, but if you did, I don't think you would have much doubt that this project is being as done as professionally as you will ever see a game desigm.

So completely untrue unless you add two qualifiers... "Wargame game design" and "in the public's eye" then I'd agree 100%. And that's very commendable but let's be accurate and not exaggerate [;)]

What makes this game so unique is he has assembled some of the hardest core WiF players from all over the world to help him on this projrct.

Which is awesome, excellent, <insert favorite adjective here>, for the current WiF players but doesn't mean much of anything to those who haven't played. I'd honestly prefer to hear that there are hoards of people playtesting that have never touched the game before and that they are working on tuning the interface and tutorials to accomodate the under or un-initiated. I could care less if some optional rule or some nuance isn't implemented correctly. I'll never know either way.

I highly suggest you go to that forum and and take a look see what is going on in there. To say there are things going on in there that us unique to all of matrix's gaming is a terrible understatement.

Why do you assume I haven't already?

The game itself had been around close to 25 years now and it is aleays getting updated. It is withought question outside of maybe the ASL games the most intensly complicated game of all time., and the people who play this game religiously have put in a lot of their time to assist Steve in getting this out around Christmastime.

Sounds like you need to visit the forum [;)] It aint makin Christmas.

Never in all my years of game playing have I seen such intense attention to detail. This game when it comes out will be the most heavily researched game by far ever in the history of the gaming industry because we have a worldeide fraternity that is stopping at nothing to ensure thuis thing comes out right and the first time. There will eventually be several add ons later but for now, we have so many volinteers helping Steve out in this project because we, more than anyone know what is at stake here. And what is at stake is something that should make WiTP like a monopoly game compared to this one. I don't know ghow many counters are in WiTP, but In MWiF there will be over 8600 of them, and that is not even close to be all of them. If you were to read all the pages of the game itself, it would be in excess of a thousanf pages when you factor in all the expansions that can come with it If you were to compare the two, then think of it this way, Everything you get in WiTP you pretty much get in MWiF, except you have to add the same complexity and detail the the entire world map, and as we all know, the european sector was much more complex tham the pacific. So everything is going to work out just fine. they have assembled the best team you could possibly have for a wargame such as this and everyone is working so well together. It is actually quite extrairdinary and being put together in a way that no game ever has done before. So keep the faith. This one is the real deal and If you were to look at all the postings on the WiF forim, you will probably rest a lot easier that this game is being put together the right way. It's nice to know that we have people who jave played this game, some of them for all 25 years, so they know all the nuiances of the game and that is a great help to Steve over there in matrix games
I will be taking several pictures of the upcaming con starting this weekend and will try to post them daily so that you can see what goes on in these games.
We're looking at about 30 to 50 people from all over the world to be at this convention, so that will mean 6 - 10 tables of games going on at once.

And outside of me playing devils advocate here.. All of what you say is essentially why I posted what I did. Agreeing with everything you say.... If WiF fails us I fear all hope is lost...We are done for...

If that game isn't successful and doesn't make a large number of people, myself included, very very happy.. Then there isn't even a point in trying again. Give up.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Veldor
But what's still clearly lacking to me is my all-time favorite.... Turn-Based Tactical WWII. Where are my 6 choices there?!?! Lock 'n Load comes closer to completing a minimum lineup but still, based on WWII Grand Strategy Counts you should have 3 or 4 similar tactical titles like that by now...

Hm - Steel Panthers: World at War, John Tiller's Campaign Series, Panzer Command are the top three in the turn-based tactical WWII category. The first two are classics, the third is an entirely new 3D effort and all IMHO are great games. Have you tried all of those?

Erik, I did cover all 3 of those in my post. I'm looking for something new.. Which Matrix gives me a wide selection now on WWII Grand Strategy. In tens years you've made basically 1 new WWII tactical game. Even if I say its the greatest thing in the world.. it still falls far short on the number you guys have made vs Strategic or Operational etc.

And I don't like that 'cuz I love tactical WWII Games.

So I cling to hope for Lock 'n Load cuz thats all Matrix is bringing me [:(]