Small Arms of WWII: What Were the Best?

[Local Yokel]

Got to raise the flag for Blighty here.

Big B mentions the British Vickers: he's quite correct, the gun remained in service with the British Army until the sixties (and possibly even longer with the Royal Marines). I think it last saw action at Aden in 1967.

As to reliability:

"On 24 August [1916] one of the most celebrated machine gun actions of all time took place nearby. This was the famous barrage fired by 100th Machine Gun Company in support of the capture of High Wood [Somme]. With the assistance of two companies of infantry to do the fetching and carrying, rapid fire (officially laid down as 250–300 rounds per minute) by 10 guns was maintained continuously for twelve hours. At the end of this period they had fired 900,750 rounds. Their target was the area behind the crest-line on which High Wood stands, through which German infantry attempting to counter-attack had to pass. According to a German prisoner, the effect of the machine-gun fire was ‘annihilating'." (Source)

This machine gun represented an improvement by Sir Hiram Maxim of his original design, changes to the lockwork having the effect of reducing substantially the weapon's weight. That said, attempts to lighten the tripod mount to less than 40lbs failed; I believe any lesser weight degraded stability/performance unacceptably.

So, for the most reliable sustained fire weapon, my vote goes to the Gun, Machine, Vickers, .303-inch.

[String]

ORIGINAL: Big B
Further aggravating that problem is - like it or not - the weapon was served by a 75 RD saddle-drum (not clip-together disintegrating link belt)\, that gives you only a few bursts of fire before you must change drums - and after a couple of drums you must change the barrel.

Only the MG34 was capable of using the saddle-drum's. This option, as well as the semi auto capability, was eliminated in MG42 to ease production and to make the weapon simpler. The standard load was a 250 round belt, which naturally could be linked together.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl




Actually it made up for it with a prodigious number of radios at all levels and the most modern and effective artillery fire direction system in the world.

So you found a different words to say the exact same thing I said......kudos

Actually, I was making a particular distinction. It wasn't that the US had a particular advantage in number of tubes. The advantage was in being able to bring EVERY tube in range into action against a single target quickly. In most armies even an FO could only bring down a single battalion of guns in support.

Agreed, but again I think you are splitting hairs. While somewhat more amiguous than your statement, my statement made no mention of numbers of tubes. You mearly clarify the methodology for the application of the "prodigiopus amounts of indirect fire support" I mentioned. I sometimes find it amazing that opinionated people can carry on a debate over something they agree on, especially when I'm doing it. [:D]

[Big B]

I stand corrected here, that was model confusion on my part, compounded by the 50 or 250 rd belt feed of the MG42.[;)]

ORIGINAL: String

ORIGINAL: Big B
Further aggravating that problem is - like it or not - the weapon was served by a 75 RD saddle-drum (not clip-together disintegrating link belt)\, that gives you only a few bursts of fire before you must change drums - and after a couple of drums you must change the barrel.

Only the MG34 was capable of using the saddle-drum's. This option, as well as the semi auto capability, was eliminated in MG42 to ease production and to make the weapon simpler. The standard load was a 250 round belt, which naturally could be linked together.

EDIT:

This was the source of my confusion above. It shows the MG-42 with its 50-rd drum in the LMG role (I was of course thinking 75-rd saddle drum of the MG-34.)

[Japan]

The Best Serialprodused (BY FAR THE BEST)  Hand Weapon of WW2 was by far the STG44 - Sturmgewehr 44

Thay Prodused in  430 000 in Total.   Note that this is the Best Serialproduced Weapon only. (IMHO)

[Japan]

[8D]
 
 
But anyway, The Best Weapon of WW2 is (IMHO) BY FAR is the FG42 - Fallschirmjägergewehr 42
 
It was Prodused for Paratroops and Special Forces only (due to the high cost to produce it).
 
 
 
 
Also, the Weapon was brought to US, were he developed the M60, who is a Improved FG42.
 
 
 
 
FG42

 
 
 
 
 
M60

 
 
 
 
 
[:)]
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[Japan]

Pritty sad to think about it actualy, Germany Entered WW2 with a Standard Infanrty Rifle from 1898.
the Kar 1898 (Renamed Kar 98 due to morale phurpesses) was Standard Infantery Rifle of the German Army...  And i read here for a few days ago that the Germans had the Capebilety to verey Easy Produce the G41/G43 already in 1937, and that thay had the capebilety and knowlage of how to produce a Automatic Light Weight Assult Rifle such as the STG44 already in 1939... But never did it untill much much later..

Well Well, in another hand thay were doomed anyway as thay didnt evan start War Production and Gear Up untill late 1943...


[&:]

[m10bob]

The best small arms are not always the most accurate, most produced,etc.
The best were the ones that be dropped in the mud, picked up, and still fired without problems.

Been there, done that, got the shirt.

[Anthropoid]

Very interesting stuff guys!

I'm an anthropologist by trade, with a focus on things like evolutionary psychology, human evolution, health. Generally anthroids tend to be so left-wingish that they don't even wanna think about things like firearms, though there are some famous anthropologists who study warfare.

When I put humanity into natural historical perspective, and consider that, the first fricking bow-and-arrow applied to warfare at mass scale was in like 4000 BC (mighta been 2000BC) I am utterly amazed at the evolution of weapons in general but projectile weapons in particular. The whole 6000 to 4000 years of it is amazing, but especially the last 500 or so since the application of gunpowder to guns. From that broad perspective, the last 150 years or so is even more dizzylingly amazing with the period of "The Great War Acts I & II" being still even more amazing.

These brains and these bodies are still "being built" from the same genotype-environment dynamics that our Hunter-Gatherer ancestors armed with piddly short-bows against lions and antelope used. But our "bows" have become something so totally new it boggles my mind.

Stop and think for a second about the evolution of firearms during the Am Civ War. At the beginning rifled barrels and breechloaders were fairly uncommon. By the end, you have light-weight, compact repeating carbines and rifles that (if I understand correctly) are not that much different than what were used as the primary infantry and cavalry weapons for the next 40 years, for example the Kar 1898, and indeed right up into WWI.

Then we have other examples of a similar pattern of "punctuated equilibrium" in firearm evolution in the example of the MG42 being the same (basically) weapon as its modern descendants.

As I understand it, basic design exemplified in devices like the springfield bolt action have not really changed that much in the last 80 or 90 years eh?

Pritty sad to think about it actualy, Germany Entered WW2 with a Standard Infanrty Rifle from 1898.
the Kar 1898 (Renamed Kar 98 due to morale phurpesses) was Standard Infantery Rifle of the German Army... And i read here for a few days ago that the Germans had the Capebilety to verey Easy Produce the G41/G43 already in 1937, and that thay had the capebilety and knowlage of how to produce a Automatic Light Weight Assult Rifle such as the STG44 already in 1939... But never did it untill much much later..

Well Well, in another hand thay were doomed anyway as thay didnt evan start War Production and Gear Up untill late 1943...

Hey Engineer! I see you are in here too!

I wanted to comment here. Engineer's Western Citadel mod for WPO is one of the best game mods I have ever experienced. Indeed, the interest that this mod evoked for me is basically what got me over the hump of the learning cliff with the WPO/WiTP. The key thing that really hooked me on this mod: it has a very compelling, simple, yet fascinating STORY behind it. To put it simply: one Japanese naval official does not get killed because Titanic does not sink, and this reshapes both Japanese and American policy in the 1920s. Beautifully done mod.

Every since this mod, I keep thinking in terms of how small things can have massive long-term consequences. This idea is promoted in party by my knowledge of bottle-neck effects, and founder effects in biological evolution. Example, it is now thought that all New World Monkeys are derived from a very small population (perhaps a few score) of Old World monkey individuals carried across the early (and much less wide) Atlantic Ocean on some sort of natural floating raft (e.g., a mass of vegetation flushed out of a river by a storm). All the modern north American Starlings (some 200,000 birds) are descendants of a couple score birds released in Central Park NY.

In sum, I think the idea of alternate histories is a very compelling and fascinating one, and alternative scenarios can be hinged on really rather simple pretexts. For example, the point Japan makes about Germany's capacity to mass produce assault rifles in 1937, but IRL they continued to make use of the 40+ year old bolt-action as their primary infantry weapon. To say nothing of the much larger issue of full-scale war mobilization being delayed until 1943.

I'm about to try out RHS-AIO using the Level 7 maps, so maybe I'll find an outlet for all these deep thoughts!

[Adnan Meshuggi]

ORIGINAL: Japan








The Best Serialprodused (BY FAR THE BEST)  Hand Weapon of WW2 was by far the STG44 - Sturmgewehr 44

Thay Prodused in  430 000 in Total.   Note that this is the Best Serialproduced Weapon only. (IMHO)

Well, the STG44 was a revolutionary weapon, but still with pistol ammo, the short cartridge.

The idea to make a rifle cartridge automatic weapon, the final solution, was made by a certain russian who was deeply inspired by this weapon. His weapon will be remembered as the finest automatic rifle in the world, the AK47. (and yes, i know that now other ars are better - but how many of them had been used/produced and work after been mistreated like the ak47?

For MGs, the MG42 was and is the best maschinegun of the world. It is to heavy for modern warfare, but an enemy aproaching this weapon will be in deep trouble.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

ORIGINAL: Japan

The Best Serialprodused (BY FAR THE BEST)  Hand Weapon of WW2 was by far the STG44 - Sturmgewehr 44

Thay Prodused in  430 000 in Total.   Note that this is the Best Serialproduced Weapon only. (IMHO)

Well, the STG44 was a revolutionary weapon, but still with pistol ammo, the short cartridge.

The idea to make a rifle cartridge automatic weapon, the final solution, was made by a certain russian who was deeply inspired by this weapon. His weapon will be remembered as the finest automatic rifle in the world, the AK47. (and yes, i know that now other ars are better - but how many of them had been used/produced and work after been mistreated like the ak47?

For MGs, the MG42 was and is the best maschinegun of the world. It is to heavy for modern warfare, but an enemy aproaching this weapon will be in deep trouble.

I would not say that Ammo for German StG-44 "7.92x33mm Kurz" is pistol ammo!

True, this ammo was shorter than, at that time common, rifle cartridge but it was very similar (size, weight, energy) to Russian "7.62x39mm" that was used in AK-47 few years later...

Thus, IMHO, German StG-44 was true "Asault Rifle" in full meaning of the world (including ammo)!


Leo "Apollo11"

[Japan]

The FG42 was the most Advansed  Small Arms Weapon of WW2.
 
With a Closed Bolt System, evan today we design modern weapons based on its plattform.
 
 
[:)]

[DW]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

It is interesting to consider whether pistols really matter. I mean, imagine a Division or Brigade or whatever where NO PISTOLS were issued. Would it _really_ have mattered?

From my readings, it seems that the primary function of a pistol was to provide souvenirs to the opposing forces. [:)]

[wdolson]

A pistol does make for a light weight and easy to carry backup weapon. 

Bill

[Anthropoid]

ORIGINAL: wdolson A pistol does make for a light weight and easy to carry backup weapon. 

Bill

True enough. But then a Gladius makes for a lightweight and easy to carry backup weapon TOO! [;)]

This doesn't really answer my original question though

It is interesting to consider whether pistols really matter. I mean, imagine a Division or Brigade or whatever where NO PISTOLS were issued. Would it _really_ have mattered?

I almost tend to think DW is right and "primary function of a pistol was to provide souvenirs to the opposing forces."

Well that, and the other thing being a "Comfort Object". I'm not trying to be a smart-ass or patronizing here, just trying to think creatively about the role that small arms played in tactics and emergent win-loss phenomenae.

I seriously doubt that a company of seasoned infantry would be demoralized in prepping for an attack on an enemy position knowing that "every man over there has a rifle, AND a pistol." Moreover, pistols are so inaccurate, have such low magazine capacity, and (generally) so much less power, I reckon the contexts in which they are truly "useful" (and excluding those situations in which the soldiers primary weapon has become unuseable for some reason) are fairly uncommon, and indeed bleak. Meaning: unless you are a Tunnel Rat, or something similar, the only time a pistol would seem to be truly useful is if the enemy is in the process of breaching a hard point. And even then, if the enemy has thrown explosives, or flame throwers or some similar technology that allows them to standoff and introduce a destructive device with a large kill zone inside the hard-point, what use is a pistol!?

[Mynok]

Pistols were necessary for weeding out incompetent officers. If they blew their toe off, they were sent to non-combat postions. [:'(]

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

... So you'd consider the B.A.R. an "automatic rifle" not a "machine gun?" Please, elaborate

BAR = Browning Automatic Rifle

It didn't have a high rate of fire, or a large magazine, but Clyde Barrow sure swore by it.

[Sardaukar]

Suomi SMG is definitely better than Sten or Thompson or Grease Gun when it comes to performance. PPsH-41 is supposedly derived from it via stolen blueprints.

Check quite comprehensive article here:

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html

Weapon proved to be excellent in WW II.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

... So you'd consider the B.A.R. an "automatic rifle" not a "machine gun?" Please, elaborate

BAR = Browning Automatic Rifle

It didn't have a high rate of fire, or a large magazine, but Clyde Barrow sure swore by it.

The guys that shot him did as well.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

... So you'd consider the B.A.R. an "automatic rifle" not a "machine gun?" Please, elaborate

BAR = Browning Automatic Rifle

It didn't have a high rate of fire, or a large magazine, but Clyde Barrow sure swore by it.

The guys that shot him did as well.

True, most of Texas Ranger Frank Hamer's people had the BAR, and the BAR had AP capability, depending on the round carried, and with a longer barrel than the M1 Garand, was a favourite as used for more difficult target buildings when a nice .50 cal weapon was not available.
According to Hogg's book, it was America's answer to the French idea of "marching fire", and was originally issued with a carrying strap which allowed the user to fire it while advancing since the thing had such a heavy recoil, preventing accurate shoulder-fire by any but the biggest users.


http://texashideout.tripod.com/guns.html