Alternate Naval Combat

[Mardonius]

Marshall:

I done a bit of playing with the new Light Ship/Heavy ship sea battles in EiANW. Although I really like the concept, in execution it is, in my opinion, less satisfactory than the old board game version. Plus, the transports with their marginal movement of 3 are not of much use except in confined waters (Baltic, Black Sea). And the increased costs/build times sway naval dominance even further to the UK.

I would recommend two courses of action: (1) Include an option to revert to the same naval combat rules as in the board game and (2) Include and option to have a naval combat version that is somewhat similar to that used in Empires in Harm.

Obviously, some playtesting will be needed to done with the second option. If done properly, it could make the Naval Combat a lot more viable and exciting. Glad to help with the concept documents/charts/tables if you are keen.

Oh, and where is the Barbary Pirates option? Arghhhh! [8D]
best,

Mardonius

[pzgndr]

But why two courses of action?  If using classic EiA OOBs then only heavy fleets are used and the current naval combat system should work fine.  If using EiH OOBs with light fleets then the current naval combat already accounts for combined heavy/light fleets versus heavy/light fleets and should also work fine.  Heavy versus heavy should be the same with either OOB, or is there a difference??  If the current system could be enhanced for better heavy/light combat per EiH rules, then that's worth considering; it would only affect games using EiH OOBs.
 
If possible, it would be best to have a single comprehensive system that would accommodate either OOB version, so then it becomes a matter of scenario design and not an either/or argument about game rules.  You either have light fleets in play or you don't.  The pp issue is still unresolved, yes?  Question is whether light fleets and transports should count as 1 pp or 1/2 pp.  I would think 1/2 pp is fine but it was still up in the air when I last saw anything?
 
Speaking of the pirates, the optional piracy seems to be a compelling game feature to warrant light fleets, since there's not too much you can do with them.  Some don't care for the option at all, but that's like playing a WWII game without U-boats and ASW strategic warfare.  It may help to consider some enhancements to piracy to also make that a lot more viable and exciting. [8D]

[Marshall Ellis]

I think an EiA classic scenario would solve this.
 
 

[delatbabel]

Three cheers for EiA classic.

Here is my simple fix for the heavy ships / light ships question:

* When a combat is fought by adversary A vs adversary B, compare A's relative strength in terms of heavy vs light ships.
* If B suffers losses, then those losses must be taken in proportion to A's relative ship strength. e.g. if A has 10 heavy ships and 30 light ships, then B must take 25% of his losses in heavy ships and 75% in light ships.
* Excess light ship losses may be taken as 2:1 for heavy ships. e.g. instead of taking 4 light ship losses, B may take 2 heavy ship losses.
* Excess heavy ship losses may be taken as 3:1 for light ships. e.g. instead of taking 2 heavy ship losses, B may take 6 light ship losses.

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: delatbabel


Here is my simple fix for the heavy ships / light ships question:

Here is mine: Get rid of them. Was that positive? LOL.

Anyways, yes, 3 large cheers for Empires in Arms.

It's not really "classic" since there is only 1.

[gwheelock]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

But why two courses of action?  If using classic EiA OOBs then only heavy fleets are used and the current naval combat system should work fine.  If using EiH OOBs with light fleets then the current naval combat already accounts for combined heavy/light fleets versus heavy/light fleets and should also work fine.  Heavy versus heavy should be the same with either OOB, or is there a difference??  If the current system could be enhanced for better heavy/light combat per EiH rules, then that's worth considering; it would only affect games using EiH OOBs.

If possible, it would be best to have a single comprehensive system that would accommodate either OOB version, so then it becomes a matter of scenario design and not an either/or argument about game rules.  You either have light fleets in play or you don't.  The pp issue is still unresolved, yes?  Question is whether light fleets and transports should count as 1 pp or 1/2 pp.  I would think 1/2 pp is fine but it was still up in the air when I last saw anything?

Speaking of the pirates, the optional piracy seems to be a compelling game feature to warrant light fleets, since there's not too much you can do with them.  Some don't care for the option at all, but that's like playing a WWII game without U-boats and ASW strategic warfare.  It may help to consider some enhancements to piracy to also make that a lot more viable and exciting. [8D]

Actually the "Classic EIA OOB" is LIGHT ships only (look at the cost & construction times) with 30 (instead of 20) ship corp &
NO heavy or Transport corp (& no ability to build them) & no pirate options. Very simple to do. (The NUMBER of corp each
nation has would of course have to be the correct number from EIA - not EIANW or EIH)

[Marshall Ellis]

Are they lights? Or all heavies? OR in between (An abstraction of lights, heavies and trransports)?
 

[NeverMan]

Guy is saying that they are lights because of the corps size and the build time, which makes sense.

[Marshall Ellis]

Light ship corps are only 10 in size???
(Doesn't really matter, I'm just curious)
 
 

[gwheelock]

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Guy is saying that they are lights because of the corps size and the build time, which makes sense.

Actually NOT the corp size (that is the part that DOESNT match). What DOES match
is the COST ($/MP) and the build time. So to provide a "Classic EIA Naval OOB"; just
use only light ships with >30< ship fleets instead of 10s (& the correct NUMBERS of fleets & ships for each MP).

There would still be a problem with transport capacity since EIA is based on a
per-fleet instead of a per-ship system. (A 1-ship EIA fleet can still carry an
army corp)

[gwheelock]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Light ship corps are only 10 in size???
(Doesn't really matter, I'm just curious)

Opps; yep current lights are 10 not 20 - my bad. (Thats what happens when you post after midnight & most of the brain-cells are asleep)

[RayKinStL]

And, if I remember correctly (been so long), ANY fleet counter (regardless of size or number of ships it contains) can carry a corp of any size.

[yammahoper]

ORIGINAL: RayKinStL

And, if I remember correctly (been so long), ANY fleet counter (regardless of size or number of ships it contains) can carry a corp of any size.

There was an optional rule that one fleet counter could carry 10 factors. The core rule was one corp per fleet.

yamma

[AresMars]

In the orginal EIA, the fleets where an abstraction of ships and naval power, where only the combat ships where represented by factors.
&nbsp;
The fleet counters themselves represented, smaller, lighter ships, transports and the such.....as well as a supported naval organization.
&nbsp;
The beauty of EiA, was that the number of fleet counters available to a Country represented its ability to influence the oceans, and&nbsp;the number of&nbsp;counters&nbsp;was as&nbsp;critical as the number of Ship factors in them, depending on what you where trying to do.
&nbsp;
This is why a FLEET&nbsp;COUNTER with 1 SHIP FACTOR could transport a CORPS.
&nbsp;
It abstracted the realities of the period and EiH tried to remedy that by having Heavy, Light and Transports.... IMHO not a great improvement.....
&nbsp;
I like the game balance the orginal EiA naval rules&nbsp;offered, even thought it was a little abstracted....also, the abstraction really made the additional fleet counters offered by the Minors MUCH MUCH more valuable then the Money and Manpower they offered.....offered increased naval influence.....even to countries like Prussia and Austria.....
&nbsp;
The EiA&nbsp;optional rule mentioned above by yammahopper was always an excellent one IMHO.
&nbsp;
&nbsp;

[Marshall Ellis]

ORIGINAL: gwheelock

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Light ship corps are only 10 in size???
(Doesn't really matter, I'm just curious)

Opps; yep current lights are 10 not 20 - my bad. (Thats what happens when you post after midnight & most of the brain-cells are asleep)

No biggy, I was just worried that I missed something

[Marshall Ellis]

ORIGINAL: yammahoper@yahoo.com

ORIGINAL: RayKinStL

And, if I remember correctly (been so long), ANY fleet counter (regardless of size or number of ships it contains) can carry a corp of any size.

There was an optional rule that one fleet counter could carry 10 factors. The core rule was one corp per fleet.

yamma

What about my current xport rate on heavies = 1 to 1 (20 ships can carry 20 inf factors or 10 cav, etc)?

[yammahoper]

I've had no problens with moving trrops using the current set up.&nbsp; Since new corps can be reinforced ontop of existing armies even over seas, I have sent one corp, established my depot, then filled up a few corps once there.
&nbsp;
The transport navy is useful for moving troops and providing supply off the coast.&nbsp; When dancing around the med and Italy, I find it vital.
&nbsp;
yamma

[RayKinStL]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

ORIGINAL: yammahoper@yahoo.com

ORIGINAL: RayKinStL

And, if I remember correctly (been so long), ANY fleet counter (regardless of size or number of ships it contains) can carry a corp of any size.

There was an optional rule that one fleet counter could carry 10 factors. The core rule was one corp per fleet.

yamma

What about my current xport rate on heavies = 1 to 1 (20 ships can carry 20 inf factors or 10 cav, etc)?

Personally, I hate it. But I am an EiA purist. I am not sure I understand the optional rule mentioned above. Are you saying that as Britain, with the optional rule, if I had a full I corps, I needed to fleet counters to transport the troops? Or are you saying I could only put 10 factors in a corps if it wanted to board a fleet?

I am curiosu, but regardless, I liked the original rules. One corps per counter. Ship strength made no difference. Id'd prefer a "fog of war" option for ships. I never understood why everyone got to know the strength of each fleet counter whenever they wanted. Seems odd.

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: RayKinStL

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

ORIGINAL: yammahoper@yahoo.com




There was an optional rule that one fleet counter could carry 10 factors. The core rule was one corp per fleet.

yamma

What about my current xport rate on heavies = 1 to 1 (20 ships can carry 20 inf factors or 10 cav, etc)?

Personally, I hate it. But I am an EiA purist. I am not sure I understand the optional rule mentioned above. Are you saying that as Britain, with the optional rule, if I had a full I corps, I needed to fleet counters to transport the troops? Or are you saying I could only put 10 factors in a corps if it wanted to board a fleet?

I am curiosu, but regardless, I liked the original rules. One corps per counter. Ship strength made no difference. Id'd prefer a "fog of war" option for ships. I never understood why everyone got to know the strength of each fleet counter whenever they wanted. Seems odd.

Yes, this is how EIA miscellaneous options section 12. Same section other paragraphs im guessing atleast some you used

Limitied transport was about 10 factor limit on fleets.12.2.4.
Following are from the same section and included in EIANW
Economic manipulation 12.5,
Cavalry options [Cavalry superiority 12.3.3.1 and Cavalry withdrawals 12.3.3.2],
Guard commitment 12.3.4,
Artillery corps 12.3.5,
Leader Casulties 12.7,
Detaching/Absorbing minor free state factors 12.3.8.

Im bit puzzled by the concept when you mention purist.
Beeing a purist you used none of those EIA rules or only a selection ?
As a purist you would allow all or none no ?

Regards
Bresh

[RayKinStL]

We must have voted on each individually I guess (it was so long ago).&nbsp; I know for a fact that one fleet counter carried one corp...plain and simple.&nbsp; I know we used Guard committment and I know we used Economic Manipulation as well as Leader Casualties.&nbsp; I guess we must have voted on each miscellaneous option individually (or perhaps they had a set way they played...which rules they used).&nbsp; So i may not be a purist PURIST, but I guess I am keen to the rules we used cause I felt they worked well with the game.&nbsp; Limited fleet capacity, ro the goofy way EiANW does it seems tedious and stupid.&nbsp;
&nbsp;
Do you know why one can not hide the power of each fleet?&nbsp; WHy is this general knowledge when corp strength is hidden?&nbsp; I never understood this, btu never erally questioned it either.&nbsp; Is there a fog of war option to hide the strength of fleets and treat naval strength like army strength?