Rules Clarification List

[Orm]

That is the probable solution but I have trouble with the reference that minor countries never conquers anyting, its major power does (unless it is not at war, see 2.5).

I considered that maybe Persian units are not allowed to enter Iraq because it may not be at war with Iraq but the rule is ambiguous to me.

9.7
"The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it."

That implies that Iraq is at war with Persia but Persia is not at war with Iraq. I suppose that is the solution.

-Orm

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Orm

That is the probable solution but I have trouble with the reference that minor countries never conquers anyting, its major power does (unless it is not at war, see 2.5).

I considered that maybe Persian units are not allowed to enter Iraq because it may not be at war with Iraq but the rule is ambiguous to me.

9.7
"The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it."

That implies that Iraq is at war with Persia but Persia is not at war with Iraq. I suppose that is the solution.

-Orm

If A is at war with B, then B is at war with A. I don't think B gets much choice if A's controlling major power declares war on it.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Orm

In a recent discussion with a friend we had some trouble with simultaneus conquest.

Example 1.
USSR declares war on Persia. Germany gets control of Persia. Germany and CW is at war. Iraq is a CW minor. USSR units move into Tehran. The Persian cav moves into Baghdad. In the conquest step Persia is conquered by USSR and Iraq is conquered by Germany (since the hexes in Iraq is converted to German control).

Now to the tricky example.

Example 2.
USSR declares war on Persia. Germany gets control of Persia. Iraq is a USSR minor. Germany and USSR are NOT at war. Iraq moves it cav into Tehran and reverts it to USSR control. Persia moves it cav into Baghdad. The hexes stays Persian since Germany is not at war with Iraq(USSR). In the conquest step USSR is in control of Tehran and conquers Persia. Persia is in control of Baghdad. What happens to Iraq?

I am not comfortable with what comes to my mind. Persia conquers Iraq. Germany conquers Iraq. Iraq stays a USSR minor.



RAW7 AUG04
13.7.1 Conquest
You can only conquer a home country or territory if you are at war with the major power or minor country that controls it.
All conquest in a turn occurs simultaneously.
Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory is instead conquered by the minor’s controlling major power (unless it is not at war, see 2.5).
2.5 Control
However, hexes taken from an enemy major power (or its controlled minors) are controlled by the major power taking them regardless of whether those hexes are taken by units of the major power or its controlled minors, unless the major powers are not at war with each other (in which case the hexes are controlled by the minor country taking them).


-Orm

Sorry, but this seems preety easy to me, unless I am missing something.

In your given scenario, a Persian unit can never conquer Iraq since Germany is not at war with the USSR (and hence Germany is not at war with Iraq). An Iraqi unit can conquer Persia, since the USSR is at war with Persia.

Persia cannot conquer Iraq because it must already have been conquered by Russia. Persia cannot liberate Iraq for two reasons:
1. It gets conquered before the Liberation step.
2. It is not a Major Power.

So in the conquest step Persia is completely conquered. 13.7 in talking about a completely conquered power states "Each hex it controls in a territory or home country controlled by another major power or minor country reverts to the control of that other major power or minor country."

So Russia keeps control of Iraq.

[paulderynck]

Deleted.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Orm

RAW7 AUG04
13.7.1 Conquest
You can only conquer a home country or territory if you are at war with the major power or minor country that controls it.
All conquest in a turn occurs simultaneously.
Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory is instead conquered by the minor’s controlling major power (unless it is not at war, see 2.5).
2.5 Control
However, hexes taken from an enemy major power (or its controlled minors) are controlled by the major power taking them regardless of whether those hexes are taken by units of the major power or its controlled minors, unless the major powers are not at war with each other (in which case the hexes are controlled by the minor country taking them).

-Orm

Sorry, but this seems preety easy to me, unless I am missing something.

In your given scenario, a Persian unit can never conquer Iraq since Germany is not at war with the USSR (and hence Germany is not at war with Iraq). An Iraqi unit can conquer Persia, since the USSR is at war with Persia.

Minor countries can control hexes in other minor countries per the quotes from RAW provided. But "Minor countries never conquer anything".

[oscar72se]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Minor countries can control hexes in other minor countries per the quotes from RAW provided. But "Minor countries never conquer anything".

Just to clarify, this means that a minor country can never expand beyond it´s initial borders. All conquests made by a minor country would fall into the controlling MPs´hands.

Regards,
Oscar

[coregames]

This may sound silly, but can a faceup TRS (or SCS) at sea, voluntarily return to base as a naval move, and on its way, move into a port, pick a unit up (DIV in the case of SCS), and move out, then into a destination port with the unit? The rules don't seem to prohibit it, but this has never occured to us.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: coregames

This may sound silly, but can a faceup TRS (or SCS) at sea, voluntarily return to base as a naval move, and on its way, move into a port, pick a unit up (DIV in the case of SCS), and move out, then into a destination port with the unit? The rules don't seem to prohibit it, but this has never occured to us.

Yes.

[Taxman66]

The cargo would arrive face down though.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

The cargo would arrive face down though.

And it can be done in the final return to base step or on a voluntary or even a forced abort from combat - unless RAC is different.

(Yes I know... wow, that's really gamey!)

[Shannon V. OKeets]

One of the US Entry options is to occupy Greenland and Iceland. With the MWIF map, the Faeroes Islands are left in limbo by this rule.

The Faeroes do not appear on the WIF FE paper maps, so there is no mention of them in the rules. However, they are similar to Greenland and Iceland, being owned by Denmark at the beginning of the war, and becoming neutral once Denmark is conquered.

Here is how the beginning of the Brute Force scenario looks currently, with the US controlling Iceland and the Faeroes being neutral (no flags).

Should the Faeroes also be given to the US when Greenland and Iceland are?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

One of the US Entry options is to occupy Greenland and Iceland. With the MWIF map, the Faeroes Islands are left in limbo by this rule.

The Faeroes do not appear on the WIF FE paper maps, so there is no mention of them in the rules. However, they are similar to Greenland and Iceland, being owned by Denmark at the beginning of the war, and becoming neutral once Denmark is conquered.

Here is how the beginning of the Brute Force scenario looks currently, with the US controlling Iceland and the Faeroes being neutral (no flags).

Should the Faeroes also be given to the US when Greenland and Iceland are?

The Faeroes were controlled by Denmark during WW2, as Wikipedia can confirms :

************************************
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faroe_Islands :

They have been an autonomous province of the Kingdom of Denmark since 1948, making it a member of the Rigsfællesskab. The Faroese have, over the years, taken control of most matters except defence (though they have a native coast guard), foreign affairs and the legal system. These three areas are the responsibility of Denmark.

The Faroes have close traditional ties to Iceland, Shetland, Orkney, the Outer Hebrides and Greenland. The archipelago was politically detached from Norway in 1814. The Faroes are represented in the Nordic Council as a part of the Danish delegation.
************************************

However,

Iceland occupation by the United States during WW2 is mentionned in the history of Iceland (here for example : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland where it says "In 1941, responsibility for the occupation was taken over by the United States Army. Allied occupation of Iceland lasted throughout the war.").

History of Greenland shows a great connection with the USA (without occupation as for Iceland) (See here for example : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greenland).

The history of the Faeroes Islands (see here for example : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... oe_Islands) speaks about a British occupation during all WW2, and absolutely no link to the USA.

So I think that the Faeroes should not be given to the US when Greenland and Iceland are.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Here is how the beginning of the Brute Force scenario looks currently, with the US controlling Iceland and the Faeroes being neutral (no flags).

The Faeroes being neutral looks OK by WiF FE mechanisms : When Denmark falls, all Territories where no one has influence (units), reverts to neutrality.

But when you look at the history of the Faeroes, you learn that they were occupied by British forces that garrisoned it for fear of the Germans establishing SUB bases here. So maybe the Faeroes should start all scenarios starting after M/A 40 (See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_oc ... rld_War_II).

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Here is how the beginning of the Brute Force scenario looks currently, with the US controlling Iceland and the Faeroes being neutral (no flags).

The Faeroes being neutral looks OK by WiF FE mechanisms : When Denmark falls, all Territories where no one has influence (units), reverts to neutrality.

But when you look at the history of the Faeroes, you learn that they were occupied by British forces that garrisoned it for fear of the Germans establishing SUB bases here. So maybe the Faeroes should start all scenarios starting after M/A 40 (See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_oc ... rld_War_II).

The only problem I have with this is how to implement it - according to the rules.

There is code that makes Greenland, Iceland, and the Faeroes go neutral once Denmark is conquered, but that same code applies to all territories (no capitals present) when their controlling minor country is conquered.

What rule(s) would cover the landing of CW troops on the Faeroes (or Iceland for that matter)? Can major powers that are at war simply 'occupy' neutral territories if the original controlling neutral country has been conquered? Could Germany place units in the Faeroes? Do either of these require invasions? How about needing a DOW?

[lomyrin]

IN CWiF, Denmark aligned with the CW and subsequently conquered by Germany, Greenalnd, Iceland and the Faroes all become CW controlled.
 
The US entry action for occupying Iceland and Greenland then makes those US controlled but the Faroes remain under CW control.
 
Lars
 
 

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

IN CWiF, Denmark aligned with the CW and subsequently conquered by Germany, Greenalnd, Iceland and the Faroes all become CW controlled.

The US entry action for occupying Iceland and Greenland then makes those US controlled but the Faroes remain under CW control.

Lars

Sounds right. Thanks.

I'll see if I can insert the code to effect all that for the scenarios that start after Denmark was conquered.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The only problem I have with this is how to implement it - according to the rules.

There is code that makes Greenland, Iceland, and the Faeroes go neutral once Denmark is conquered, but that same code applies to all territories (no capitals present) when their controlling minor country is conquered.

What rule(s) would cover the landing of CW troops on the Faeroes (or Iceland for that matter)?

Let's just have the Faeroes CW controlled at the start of any scenario that start after M/A 40.

Otherwise, the status of the Faeores in the other scenarios will have to follow RAW, that is become neutral if there is no foreign presence in the Faeroes. Not that it really matters, because once Neutral, the CW can DoW the Faeroes to land there, and conquer it, and the case is closed.

Can major powers that are at war simply 'occupy' neutral territories if the original controlling neutral country has been conquered?

No. RAW covers that, let's not change that.

Could Germany place units in the Faeroes? Do either of these require invasions? How about needing a DOW?

While the Danemark neutral, they have to DoW the Denmark and invade.
While the Danemark is CW aligned and not yet conquered, they have to invade.
While the Danemark is CW aligned and conquered, they have to DoW and then invade.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The only problem I have with this is how to implement it - according to the rules.

There is code that makes Greenland, Iceland, and the Faeroes go neutral once Denmark is conquered, but that same code applies to all territories (no capitals present) when their controlling minor country is conquered.

What rule(s) would cover the landing of CW troops on the Faeroes (or Iceland for that matter)?

Let's just have the Faeroes CW controlled at the start of any scenario that start after M/A 40.

Otherwise, the status of the Faeores in the other scenarios will have to follow RAW, that is become neutral if there is no foreign presence in the Faeroes. Not that it really matters, because once Neutral, the CW can DoW the Faeroes to land there, and conquer it, and the case is closed.

I agree this is the way to do it but the one problem you have is U.S.Entry. FREX Denmark is conquered and the turn ends. The Faroes per RAW go neutral but also per RAW they are treated as a minor country for a DoW. Since the Faroes were added to the game I'd suggest adding to the "Occupy Iceland/Greenland" option, that at the same time, the CW can occupy the Faroes.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The only problem I have with this is how to implement it - according to the rules.

There is code that makes Greenland, Iceland, and the Faeroes go neutral once Denmark is conquered, but that same code applies to all territories (no capitals present) when their controlling minor country is conquered.

What rule(s) would cover the landing of CW troops on the Faeroes (or Iceland for that matter)?

Let's just have the Faeroes CW controlled at the start of any scenario that start after M/A 40.

Otherwise, the status of the Faeores in the other scenarios will have to follow RAW, that is become neutral if there is no foreign presence in the Faeroes. Not that it really matters, because once Neutral, the CW can DoW the Faeroes to land there, and conquer it, and the case is closed.

I agree this is the way to do it but the one problem you have is U.S.Entry. FREX Denmark is conquered and the turn ends. The Faroes per RAW go neutral but also per RAW they are treated as a minor country for a DoW. Since the Faroes were added to the game I'd suggest adding to the "Occupy Iceland/Greenland" option, that at the same time, the CW can occupy the Faroes.

That's unattractive because the CW will want to occupy the Faeroes long before the US can/wants to choose the US Entry option for Greenland/Iceland. Also, the rules indicate that the CW and Germany might have units in Iceland/Greenland when the US chooses that US entry option.

In terms of US Entry, is DOW a territory the same as DOW a minor country?

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

In terms of US Entry, is DOW a territory the same as DOW a minor country?

It is for territories that lapse into neutrality. I forget if there are any territories initially that are not owned by somebody - I don't think there are. But if you are asking the cost, it is -5 for the CW/France and +3 for Germany/Italy.