Rules Clarification List

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
That's unattractive because the CW will want to occupy the Faeroes long before the US can/wants to choose the US Entry option for Greenland/Iceland. Also, the rules indicate that the CW and Germany might have units in Iceland/Greenland when the US chooses that US entry option.

Then maybe along with introducing the problematical islands you'll have to introduce a rule that they are automatically controlled by whoever Denmark aligns with and remain so, even if unoccupied when Denmark is conquered.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

In terms of US Entry, is DOW a territory the same as DOW a minor country?

It is for territories that lapse into neutrality. I forget if there are any territories initially that are not owned by somebody - I don't think there are. But if you are asking the cost, it is -5 for the CW/France and +3 for Germany/Italy.

This cost is for Minor Countries.
There is no cost for Territories.
But the rule for Conquest says that :
"Each remaining territory and conquered home country it controls becomes controlled by the major power with the greatest influence in that country or territory (see incomplete conquest above). If no-one has any influence there, that territory or home country becomes neutral. Each neutral territory may subsequently be declared war on as if it were a minor country."

The CW can send something there before the end of the turn in which the Denmark is invaded, and they will have the Faeroes. This is what the British did IRL. The Germans invaded Denmark on the 9 April, and the British occupied the Faeroes on the 12 April. Pretty quick reaction.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
That's unattractive because the CW will want to occupy the Faeroes long before the US can/wants to choose the US Entry option for Greenland/Iceland. Also, the rules indicate that the CW and Germany might have units in Iceland/Greenland when the US chooses that US entry option.

Then maybe along with introducing the problematical islands you'll have to introduce a rule that they are automatically controlled by whoever Denmark aligns with and remain so, even if unoccupied when Denmark is conquered.

This is looks good from a historical point of view.
The British did not send a DIV scaled unit there, they send 250 Royal Marines. So an auto occupation looks good, but, hey, that's something more to add to the programmation of the game.

Also, if we do that, what about other similar cases ? Isn't it the door openned to plenty of special control rules ?

[Norman42]

The CW can send something there before the end of the turn in which the Denmark is invaded, and they will have the Faeroes. This is what the British did IRL. The Germans invaded Denmark on the 9 April, and the British occupied the Faeroes on the 12 April. Pretty quick reaction.

I think RAW and this statement cover the situation fairly well.

It goes neutral if no troops are there during conquest; if troops are there it reverts to their control. If you want to take it after conquest, you DOW and suffer the consequences. USE Occupy Iceland option has no bearing on the Faeroes, as was historical.

So if UK wants to hold them, they either land troops before Denmark falls, or they DOW it later. Likewise for Germany.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Norman42

The CW can send something there before the end of the turn in which the Denmark is invaded, and they will have the Faeroes. This is what the British did IRL. The Germans invaded Denmark on the 9 April, and the British occupied the Faeroes on the 12 April. Pretty quick reaction.

I think RAW and this statement cover the situation fairly well.

It goes neutral if no troops are there during conquest; if troops are there it reverts to their control. If you want to take it after conquest, you DOW and suffer the consequences. USE Occupy Iceland option has no bearing on the Faeroes, as was historical.

So if UK wants to hold them, they either land troops before Denmark falls, or they DOW it later. Likewise for Germany.

I like this because it is clean. Of course I still have questions:

1 - Does it have to be a land unit, or could placing a naval unit or air unit qualify as 'troops'? Does a convoy qualify?
2 - Does the same thing apply to Iceland and Greenland?
3 - Does the same thing apply to other minor countries and the territories they control?

The general rule I see here is:
a - If minor country MI is aligned to major power MA, then MA can station units in MI's territories (as per standard rules).
b - Should MI be conquered, then MI's previously held territories become neutral (as per the rule that was quoted from RAW), unless there are units present from MA or EN (the other side - any enemy country).
c - If there are troops present, then the territory does not become neutral but remains controlled by the occupying force(s).
d - If there are units from both sides present, then the control of hexes remains unchanged, with MA controlling any that previously had been controlled by MI.

This does not require a lot of coding since most of these conditional statements are already in place. It is just the line of code that says the territories become neutral that would need to be expanded (c & d above).

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I like this because it is clean. Of course I still have questions:

1 - Does it have to be a land unit, or could placing a naval unit or air unit qualify as 'troops'? Does a convoy qualify?
2 - Does the same thing apply to Iceland and Greenland?
3 - Does the same thing apply to other minor countries and the territories they control?

The general rule I see here is:
a - If minor country MI is aligned to major power MA, then MA can station units in MI's territories (as per standard rules).
b - Should MI be conquered, then MI's previously held territories become neutral (as per the rule that was quoted from RAW), unless there are units present from MA or EN (the other side - any enemy country).
c - If there are troops present, then the territory does not become neutral but remains controlled by the occupying force(s).
d - If there are units from both sides present, then the control of hexes remains unchanged, with MA controlling any that previously had been controlled by MI.

This does not require a lot of coding since most of these conditional statements are already in place. It is just the line of code that says the territories become neutral that would need to be expanded (c & d above).

1) It would have to be a unit with a garrison value (Land or AC).
2) Yes.
3) Yes.

I cut out the rules that apply.

From: 13.7.1 Conquest

Complete conquest
Each remaining territory and conquered home country it controls becomes controlled by the major power with the greatest influence in that country or territory (see incomplete conquest above). If no-one has any influence there, that territory or home country becomes neutral. Each neutral territory may subsequently be declared war on as if it were a minor country.

Use this priority to determine who has the greatest influence:
1. Whoever controls most factories in the home country (with the capital counting as an additional 3 factories for this calculation).
2. Whoever has the highest garrison value (see 13.1) in the home country.
3. Whoever occupied the home country’s last factory or capital city.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I like this because it is clean. Of course I still have questions:

1 - Does it have to be a land unit, or could placing a naval unit or air unit qualify as 'troops'? Does a convoy qualify?
2 - Does the same thing apply to Iceland and Greenland?
3 - Does the same thing apply to other minor countries and the territories they control?

The general rule I see here is:
a - If minor country MI is aligned to major power MA, then MA can station units in MI's territories (as per standard rules).
b - Should MI be conquered, then MI's previously held territories become neutral (as per the rule that was quoted from RAW), unless there are units present from MA or EN (the other side - any enemy country).
c - If there are troops present, then the territory does not become neutral but remains controlled by the occupying force(s).
d - If there are units from both sides present, then the control of hexes remains unchanged, with MA controlling any that previously had been controlled by MI.

This does not require a lot of coding since most of these conditional statements are already in place. It is just the line of code that says the territories become neutral that would need to be expanded (c & d above).

1) It would have to be a unit with a garrison value (Land or AC).
2) Yes.
3) Yes.

I cut out the rules that apply.

From: 13.7.1 Conquest

Complete conquest
Each remaining territory and conquered home country it controls becomes controlled by the major power with the greatest influence in that country or territory (see incomplete conquest above). If no-one has any influence there, that territory or home country becomes neutral. Each neutral territory may subsequently be declared war on as if it were a minor country.

Use this priority to determine who has the greatest influence:
1. Whoever controls most factories in the home country (with the capital counting as an additional 3 factories for this calculation).
2. Whoever has the highest garrison value (see 13.1) in the home country.
3. Whoever occupied the home country’s last factory or capital city.

Oh.

Then perhaps the code for this is already in place.[:)] I have to reread it (sometime today). Sorry, but I just can't seem to remember all 260,000 lines of code.[:D]

[lomyrin]

Per the CWiF code Danish convoys placed in Thorshavn and remaining there after Denmark has been conquered by Germany make the Faroes CW controlled as are the convoys.  CWiF also makes them CW controlled after the Danish conquest if there were no units of any kind there.
 
Is this intended to simulate that the CW has some undefined small presence in the Islands ?
 
Lars 

[brian brian]

CWiF doesn't seem to agree with RaW in that case. I think RaW handles it all pretty well and no special exceptions are needed. Any scenario starting after Mar/Apr 40 can have them be CW controlled; any scenario before that and the players can go there if they deem it important.

Is there enough flat ground in the Fareoes to make an airstrip there without some effort (landing an Engineer)? I'm sure there is an airport there today, but was there in WWII? What I'm getting at is maybe they could be mountain hexes to simulate that. Pictures I've seen show mostly rather forbidding Fjords combined with hilly terrain.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

Per the CWiF code Danish convoys placed in Thorshavn and remaining there after Denmark has been conquered by Germany make the Faroes CW controlled as are the convoys.  CWiF also makes them CW controlled after the Danish conquest if there were no units of any kind there.

Is this intended to simulate that the CW has some undefined small presence in the Islands ?

Lars 

That may be CWiF but by RAW the convoys have to rebase and flip if they are all that is present when Denmark gets conquered.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

Per the CWiF code Danish convoys placed in Thorshavn and remaining there after Denmark has been conquered by Germany make the Faroes CW controlled as are the convoys.  CWiF also makes them CW controlled after the Danish conquest if there were no units of any kind there.

Is this intended to simulate that the CW has some undefined small presence in the Islands ?

CWiF did not have the rule for conquest completely finished.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: brian brian
Is there enough flat ground in the Fareoes to make an airstrip there without some effort (landing an Engineer)? I'm sure there is an airport there today, but was there in WWII? What I'm getting at is maybe they could be mountain hexes to simulate that. Pictures I've seen show mostly rather forbidding Fjords combined with hilly terrain.

There was an aifield setup in the Port hex. The rest could be mountains, yes.

[Orm]

Hilly terrain is not enough to be mountains. So lets make sure that there really is mountains on The Faraoes Islands first.

-Orm

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Orm
Hilly terrain is not enough to be mountains. So lets make sure that there really is mountains on The Faraoes Islands first.

-Orm

It looks quite broken in the center of each island.

[Froonp]

Another map.

[Froonp]

A view from Google Earth.

[Orm]

Nice picture you got.

Most of it looks hilly-clear to me rather than hilly-mountain.

Indeed it looks broken but remember that you compare to real mountains like the alps and this is old volcanoes.

-Orm

[Froonp]

Here are the Alps. Seen from the south. A little bit of flat Italy can be seen on the upper right hand part of the picture.

[Froonp]

Wikipedia has the following data :

**************************************
Terrain
Rugged, rocky, some low peaks; cliffs along most of coast. The coasts are deeply indented with fjords, and the narrow passages between islands are agitated by strong tidal currents.

Elevation extremes
Lowest point: Atlantic Ocean 0 m
Highest point: Slættaratindur 882 m
**************************************

Not very high, but not Tank country either.
I vote for the whole Islands to be mountain hexes, and for the Minor Port hex to stay Clear hex.

[Orm]

According to Wikipedia the Farao Islasds are - "The islands are rugged and rocky with some low peaks; the coasts are mostly bordered by cliffs. The highest point is Slættaratindur, 882 metres (2,894 ft) above sea level"

I can agree that there are some terrain that could count as mountain. But there is also alot of clear. So you have to decide if it is enough mountainous terrain to affect the combat enough to make it mountains.

It looks like you could make some WWII airstrips there anyway.

I looked at some pictures and ot looks like a nice place if you want a relaxing vacation.
http://replevin.smugmug.com/gallery/1698539#P-1-12


-Orm