Armor Types and Conditions

[Mobius]

The standard armor in Panzer Command is represented by good quality rolled and welded armor plate of the time. The penetration variance is based on the impact incident angle usually being randomly distributed on a section of armor somewhere within 0° and 30° normal to its face. The armor thickness is calculated per the LOS cross-section.

r = rounded or curved armor. The LOS thickness of armor increases at higher angles. As random points on a curved surface would have a higher variation in angles than random points on a flat surface the chance of a shell ricocheting would be higher on the former. Usually something like a side of rounded turret would rate “r” armor type. More often than not curved armor is cast armor.

rr = double rounded. This has an even higher chance of a shell hit ricocheting than on rounded armor. Double rounded armor is more often rounded in two planes while single rounded armor is in one plane only. Something like a Saukopf gun shield of a StuG would be classified as double rounded armor.

u = underline notation of highly sloped armor. This is armor angled vertically 45° or more. Sub-caliber projectiles like APCR and APDS have an increased chance of ricochet when impacting this highly sloped armor.

+ = This denotes layered armor or a second plate of armor often attached by bolts or spot welds. This would include applique armor or even spare tracks. Example as in “6+3". In most of the cases the total of the armor values would be the armor basis in this case 9. But there is about a 17% chance that only the first value applying (6) when the outer plate fails, is blown off or has gaps.

s = spaced armor. A space or distance between more than one armor layer acts to increase the protection of an armor section against HEAT shells and warheads. Where there is spaced armor the penetration of the HEAT weapon is compared to the spaced value of the armor. When there is no spaced armor value the normal armor value is used when evaluating protection from a HEAT weapon.

Deflection = This comes from the oblique angle of the AFV hull being 30° or more to the attacker. This causes a higher chance of a shell ricochet when hitting vertical armor. Instead of the impact incident angle being randomly distributed between 0° and 30° the front impact angles may be between 30° to 60°. This means that from the front the vehicle side will be somewhat exposed as well. German Tigers and Mark III and IV tanks with their boxy vertical armor could get more protection by advancing at an oblique to the enemy.

[Sgt Fury]

Can you explain what happens after you penetrate the armor? In Panzer War you would roll 4 dice if the RED die exceeded the D# then the AFV would Explode.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Sgt Fury
Can you explain what happens after you penetrate the armor? In Panzer War you would roll 4 dice if the RED die exceeded the D# then the AFV would Explode.

The same should be happening in PC.
A die is rolled for explosion. If no explosion then one is rolled for mobility loss if a hull penetration. On a turret penetration one die is rolled for gun damage, and one for crewman loss (TC). These need to roll the D number or more.
Then a die is rolled for stun. The S number or more must be rolled.

[Sgt Fury]

Thanks for the explanation Mobius. I still wish I could see the dice rolls. Is it possible to see the penetration adjustment that is being used in the game.
For example, how do I know when HEAT is reduced to 1/4 penetration. Since Im using the Stug III E vs T-34 in Tank Aces meet Ive noticed alot of front hull shots deflected. Most of the Front Hull on a T-34 is rated 8-9 and possibly sloped. 

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Sgt Fury

Thanks for the explanation Mobius. I still wish I could see the dice rolls. Is it possible to see the penetration adjustment that is being used in the game.
For example, how do I know when HEAT is reduced to 1/4 penetration. Since Im using the Stug III E vs T-34 in Tank Aces meet Ive noticed alot of front hull shots deflected. Most of the Front Hull on a T-34 is rated 8-9 and possibly sloped. 

Yes, very easy.
Check the variable penetration table in the Tables folder. The deflection is often caused because your German is firing APCR and hitting the sloped front hull or is at an oblique and is getting a deflection off the front or side hull. Though rounded front turret will do that too.

[Sgt Fury]

Variable Penetration Roll = 0      1    2    3     4     5      6      7      8      9
HEAT vs Highly Sloped     *.1 *.25 *.5  *.75 *.9  *.95   0   *1.2 *1.5  *2.0
75mm  HEAT Pen. (8)          .8    2     4     6    7.2   7.6   8    9.6    12     16
 
This is what I calculated from the tables. Looks like I have a 20% chance to get 1/4 Pen. or less. However a roll of 7+ is probably good enough to penetrate T34 (1941) sloped. Im guessing that over and under is not being used?

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Sgt Fury
Variable Penetration Roll = 0      1    2    3     4     5      6      7      8      9
HEAT vs Highly Sloped     *.1 *.25 *.5  *.75 *.9  *.95   0   *1.2 *1.5  *2.0
75mm  HEAT Pen. (8)          .8    2     4     6    7.2   7.6   8    9.6    12     16
This is what I calculated from the tables. Looks like I have a 20% chance to get 1/4 Pen. or less. However a roll of 7+ is probably good enough to penetrate T34 (1941) sloped. Im guessing that over and under is not being used?

Over and unders are used.
The roll on this is on a D6 so a "7" or better is an over.
50% of 1/6 = 1/12 = 8.33%.

[Sgt Fury]

Mobius...I think your saying I need a Critical Hit to penetrate with 75mm Heat versus T34 model 1941 sloped hull (8u-9u). I can penetrate 8u with out a critical hit (variable dice roll). A 6 should penetrate 8u. The turret of the T34 has: 5/5r, 5r,7r. Panzer War states that you subtract 1 for r on the varaible die roll. 7r (7cm of rounded armor) looks like I need to roll an 8 or better, roll 4 or better for 5r and roll 2 or better versus 5cm. tracks are really easy to penetrate only need to defeat 3cm, any roll should do the trick. Hope im not boring you with the details. Eventually, I would like to see the probablities for an entire fire resolution from to-hit to damage. So what are the odds of destroying a T-34 with 1 shot (lol). I usually need 6 shots or more to kill and about half of the time I can immobilize. The Stug III E with HEAT has a decent chance because of its 8 ROF!

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Sgt Fury
Mobius...I think your saying I need a Critical Hit to penetrate with 75mm Heat versus T34 model 1941 sloped hull (8u-9u). I can penetrate 8u with out a critical hit (variable dice roll). A 6 should penetrate 8u. The turret of the T34 has: 5/5r, 5r,7r. Panzer War states that you subtract 1 for r on the varaible die roll. 7r (7cm of rounded armor) looks like I need to roll an 8 or better, roll 4 or better for 5r and roll 2 or better versus 5cm.

You are right in your evaluation of what is needed to defeat the armour. Only in PC there is no subtracting or adding on the roll for deflection, sloped ("u") or rounded armor. Kiois made separate tables for each of these circumstances. I thought that was a pretty good idea and later tweaked them a bit to reflect what data I have.

(Double round armor I'm not sure about. There is no table for it but in testing it really increases the chance of a deflection.)

ORIGINAL: Sgt Fury
tracks are really easy to penetrate only need to defeat 3cm, any roll should do the trick. Hope im not boring you with the details. Eventually, I would like to see the probablities for an entire fire resolution from to-hit to damage. So what are the odds of destroying a T-34 with 1 shot (lol). I usually need 6 shots or more to kill and about half of the time I can immobilize. The Stug III E with HEAT has a decent chance because of its 8 ROF!

Yeah, even if you have a low chance to kill with one shot if you get a lot of shots to do it, it really makes a difference. Like "rope-a-dope" on the enemy tank.[:D]

[Sgt Fury]

This is an example of Hull Down in Panzer War. The KV-85 is firing APHE at the Stug IIIE which is hull down factor 5 (from the hill). After calculating to-hit, variable penetration and location hit (I rolled the dice BTW) I find that the ground has caused a deflection because location 1 was hit. So I didn't roll any damage dice. "A hill, ridge or gully sidewall has virtually infinite protection." quote from Panzer War.

[Mobius]

Re: SIGHTING FACTOR 40+2 [cupola]
The cupola only helps sighting if the tank is buttoned up so it stays at 40.

ORIGINAL: Sgt Fury
I find that the ground has caused a deflection because location 1 was hit. So I didn't roll any damage dice. "A hill, ridge or gully sidewall has virtually infinite protection." quote from Panzer War.

While there is hull down protection in PC I don't think it works with hull down factors as in PW. Koios would know.

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: Sgt Fury

This is an example of Hull Down in Panzer War. The KV-85 is firing APHE at the Stug IIIE which is hull down factor 5 (from the hill). After calculating to-hit, variable penetration and location hit (I rolled the dice BTW) I find that the ground has caused a deflection because location 1 was hit. So I didn't roll any damage dice. "A hill, ridge or gully sidewall has virtually infinite protection." quote from Panzer War.

Sorry to interrupt ... Thank gawd HULL DOWN works!! I've never been able to see this happen. Thank you Sgt Fury for your posting ... I like these kind of posts!
Rob

[Sgt Fury]

Your right Mobius the cupola +2 is not added, also there is a -1 size for the StuG IIIE, sighting factors should be 39.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Mraah

ORIGINAL: Sgt Fury
This is an example of Hull Down in Panzer War. The KV-85 is firing APHE at the Stug IIIE which is hull down factor 5 (from the hill). After calculating to-hit, variable penetration and location hit (I rolled the dice BTW) I find that the ground has caused a deflection because location 1 was hit. So I didn't roll any damage dice. "A hill, ridge or gully sidewall has virtually infinite protection." quote from Panzer War.

Sorry to interrupt ... Thank gawd HULL DOWN works!! I've never been able to see this happen. Thank you Sgt Fury for your posting ... I like these kind of posts!
Rob

It's not easy to identify. You have to read the text in the event window where it will say "ground deflection". The sound is like a deflection off the armor and the graphics looks like the shot broke up on the target.

[Sgt Fury]

Thanks Mraah im glad you liked the Hull Down post. Next im going to simulate a Critical Hit. The 34th Guards Heavy Tank versus the Panzer IVH a historical match-up from 11/1943. At the start of the phase the KV-85 spots the Panzer IV moving into woods. Sighting modifiers are -10 (woods) +5 (target moved) -2 (defend move). The KV-85 is unbuttoned and defend moving and spots the Panzer at about 170m. The Panzer fires 75mm APCR and misses (adding +15 to sighting) the KV-85
returns fire with 85mm APHE and *Critical Hits. Next post im going to simulate an Explosion[:D]

Im also trying to create a campaign based on the 34th Heavy Tank Regiment that fought during 11/43. Any suggestions are welcome. I believe the German XVII Army fought the 34th.

Thanks,

Sgt Fury

[Sgt Fury]

Sighting is reduced by -2 for firing main weapon. Sighting Factors= 35+6

[benpark]

It might be nice to have info like Sgt Fury has added be available in the GUI as an option. I would certainly like to know if my AFV has hull down status, or if I'm aiming at one that does as well.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: benpark
It might be nice to have info like Sgt Fury has added be available in the GUI as an option. I would certainly like to know if my AFV has hull down status, or if I'm aiming at one that does as well.

One way that might work is since hull down is determined by rays from a tank is have the tab locations be the end point of the rays. Thus one tab location would be the view from the TC and another tab the view from the driver's location. If the driver can't see a unit over a berm but the TC can then the vehicle is hull down to that unit.