Question about the B-25 G/H 75mm gun mount

[Mynok]

That's a pretty vicious looking plane.... [X(]

[Dili]

Well, you'd have to ask Chez or BK what's actually shown on the replay. But those 20 hits aren't necessarily all 75mm hits. Many could be (and probably are), 50-cal hits.

You are right i forgot about that. Then it seems too few even accounting for non IRL rate of fire the game engine has.

[ChezDaJez]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Well, you'd have to ask Chez or BK what's actually shown on the replay. But those 20 hits aren't necessarily all 75mm hits. Many could be (and probably are), 50-cal hits.

You are right i forgot about that. Then it seems too few even accounting for non IRL rate of fire the game engine has.

Some probably are .50 cal hits but I wasn't counting. I do know that the damage certainly wasn't insignificant but the ship could still fight if necessary.

You'll have to ask Brad what the attack setting was.

Chez

[bradfordkay]

I had the squadrons set on Naval Attack at 100' so that they would strafe the barges he has resupplying Merauke and Port Moresby. The attack on the surface bombardment group was not expected...

In that attack, I believe that somewhere between 3 and 6 of the "shell" hits were 75mm and the rest were .50cal. I'm pretty sure that one of the 75mm hits took out a 5" gun mount (or whatever the secondary gun mount on tha Takao is), and I think that another took out an AA gun mount...

[Dili]

okay thanks.

[Feinder]

On a similar note - somebody asked in another thread, if level bombers dropped bombs during strafe attacks.  Can anybody confirm this?

I -think- so.  But I'd be surprised that that those B-25s in the example above, didn't hit anything with bombs.

I know that FBs will bomb and strafe if set to NavAtk at 100' (my Beufighters are routinely buzz thru AGs).  But I actually don't have any specific examples of LBA bombing at 100' (I rarely bother with skip bombing, not usually worth the morale hit).

-F-

[Elessar]

ORIGINAL: Feinder
On a similar note - somebody asked in another thread, if level bombers dropped bombs during strafe attacks. Can anybody confirm this?

I had land based Zeros set for 100ft naval attack to whipe out PTs. Most of the kills came from the 60kg bombs they dropped, not from the 20mm cannon. So if the fighter bombs and strafes I do not see why the bomber should not do the same.

[ChezDaJez]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

On a similar note - somebody asked in another thread, if level bombers dropped bombs during strafe attacks.  Can anybody confirm this?

I -think- so.  But I'd be surprised that that those B-25s in the example above, didn't hit anything with bombs.

I know that FBs will bomb and strafe if set to NavAtk at 100' (my Beufighters are routinely buzz thru AGs).  But I actually don't have any specific examples of LBA bombing at 100' (I rarely bother with skip bombing, not usually worth the morale hit).

-F-

AFAICT, no. The B-25G/H used only guns. I don't have any examples of them dropping bombs.

Chez

[Dili]

Yeah in my readings about Meditteranean it says the same thing. For example in summer of 43 i have read in book that one medium bomber group had more than one month without releasing a bomb. I am not sure if that was 100% certain but it was the norm.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

AFAICT, no. The B-25G/H used only guns. I don't have any examples of them dropping bombs.

Chez

They carried bombs too.

The B-25G was based on the early model B/C/D. It had the top turret behind the wings. The fixed forward armament was 2X .50 in the nose, 4X .50s along the sides, and the 75mm gun. The 75 was hand loaded, and had terrible ballistic properties. The co-pilot was eliminated to make room for the gun loader and the ammo for the 75mm. The 75mm was mounted in the tunnel the bombadier would use to get in the nose on the glass nosed version.

The B-25H moved the top turret forward just behind the pilots, reintroduced the copilot position, added 2X .50 to the nose, and a different 75mm which had a three round auto loader, but the flight engineer had to reload the clip. The H also introduced a lot of features that were common to the Js. It had factory provided tail gun and side guns, which were often field added, but this was the first time they were provided from the factory. The last few Gs had the side gun positions, but most did not.

The 75mm gun B-25s proved to be a failure. The rate of fire was very low, and the balistics of the gun were different from the machine guns, so hitting anything with it was more luck than anything else. In the 5th AF, most Gs and Hs had their 75 replaced with a pair of .50 caliber machine guns.

The B-25J kept most of the changes introduced with the H, but came with different noses. The two main nose configurations were the solid nose strafer with 8X .50s and the glass nose similar to the early B-25s.

The latter version had a vast array of armament. B-25s destined for Europe and the Med usually had less firepower than those going to the Pacific. Many in that theater had the fixed "package guns" on the side of the fuselage deleted. The nose armamnet on these was sometimes a fixed .50 and almost always a flexible .50 held by the bombadier.

The package guns were included on virtually all Js destined for the area covered by the game. There were a variety of field modifications too. The most common was to place 4X fixed .50s around the bombadier's seat. Two on each side. Sometimes the bombadier's hand held gun was retained, but often it was deleted.

This field modification started in the 5th AF, but the practice quickly spread to other commands around the Pacific and the CBI. Skip bombing also started in the 5th AF, but was common practice for all B-25s by the end of the war.

My father was a combat photographer and he spent most of 1944 and 1945 riding in the noses of B-25s, crammed in there with 4X .50s and a 35mm motion picture camera. He was with the 5th AF in the final months of the New Guinea campaign. Then he was with the first B-25 squadron to land at Leyte after the invasion. He said the enemy was so close, they had their bomb bay doors open before the wheels were up.

After Leyte, he was transferred to a project at Saipan and flew in B-29s at the beginning of the bombing campaign of the Home Islands. In early 1945, he was supposed to return to the states permanently, but at the last minute he had to replace an officer due to ship out to the Aleutians who came down with a pendicitis. (He got a field promotion from corporal to 2nd lieutenant before leaving.) He spent the last months of the war riding in the nose of a B-25 flying from Attu. They were configured the same as the New Guinea B-25s with extra bad weather equipment. Their mission was much the same as the New Guinea B-25s. They shot up any shipping they saw and attacked some of Japan's furthest north outposts.

Because of my father's experience with the B-25, it's been a plane I know a lot about. I've also been a modeler for many years and the modeling community pays a lot of attention to the armament.

Bill

[Dili]

Btw how many 20lb parafrags B-25 could take? I have read from 100 to 60 but it seems 72 is the more reliable number.

[bradfordkay]

Bill, I believe what Chez was referring to was the incident where my B25G/H's were strafing his surface combat TF, not historical situations. However, I thought that I saw a bomb being dropped in that incident, but since these pilots aren't highly experienced (low 60's) there wasn't much chance of a hit. That's one reason I've been using them to strafe the barges... 

[Feinder]

Fascinating post wdolson!

1. How deaf was you dad?! Riding in the nose of one of those things, with all those 50s going off, litterally right by your head... Sheesh, that had to be deafening (even with protection).
2. I was wondering about how it would have affected the flight characteristics. Certainly adding 2 - 4 guns that far forward would make it fly different, let alone adding a 8 - 10 50-cals and and 75mm cannon. I can just imagine some new 2nd Lt has finished his quals on older B-25Cs, then gets shipped SWPac and, "Ok kid, we've added 8 more MGs and a cannons, now fly this..."

-F-

[ChezDaJez]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Bill, I believe what Chez was referring to was the incident where my B25G/H's were strafing his surface combat TF, not historical situations. However, I thought that I saw a bomb being dropped in that incident, but since these pilots aren't highly experienced (low 60's) there wasn't much chance of a hit. That's one reason I've been using them to strafe the barges... 

Brad is correct. I was referring to our game.

Brad, you also had B-25Cs on naval attack during that turn that dropped bombs on the AKs and AGs. Not sure, but could be confusing those with the other?

Chez

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Fascinating post wdolson!

1. How deaf was you dad?! Riding in the nose of one of those things, with all those 50s going off, litterally right by your head... Sheesh, that had to be deafening (even with protection).
2. I was wondering about how it would have affected the flight characteristics. Certainly adding 2 - 4 guns that far forward would make it fly different, let alone adding a 8 - 10 50-cals and and 75mm cannon. I can just imagine some new 2nd Lt has finished his quals on older B-25Cs, then gets shipped SWPac and, "Ok kid, we've added 8 more MGs and a cannons, now fly this..."

-F-

He's still around and kicking at 88. I wouldn't be surprised if he makes it to 100. Most people peg him in his 60s. When he was 80, I had to revise my definition of "old" when I was struggling to keep up with him on a steep hiking trail.

His hearing is pretty bad. Between the engines on the B-25, which were deafening to begin with and the guns, his hearing was pretty badly damaged. He said one day they were outbound on a mission and the pilot decided to test fire the guns. He said he was so startled he almost went through the escape hatch over his head, and he doesn't have much of a startle reflex.

He said that it was group policy in the SW Pacific that every new pilot to the group had to fly a certain number of missions as a co-pilot before moving into the left seat. Not only did they have to contend with the changes in flight characteristics from all those extra guns, but they were also usually doing it from wave top level.

Bill

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
Brad is correct. I was referring to our game.

Brad, you also had B-25Cs on naval attack during that turn that dropped bombs on the AKs and AGs. Not sure, but could be confusing those with the other?

Chez

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Brad is correct. I was referring to our game.

Brad, you also had B-25Cs on naval attack during that turn that dropped bombs on the AKs and AGs. Not sure, but could be confusing those with the other?

Chez

Just looked at the CHS database, or at least a version of it. The B-25G/H has a load of 4X 500 lb bombs.

Who knows if the game engine uses them or not. Stranger things have happened (I know, I've fixed the bugs.)

Bill

[bradfordkay]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Bill, I believe what Chez was referring to was the incident where my B25G/H's were strafing his surface combat TF, not historical situations. However, I thought that I saw a bomb being dropped in that incident, but since these pilots aren't highly experienced (low 60's) there wasn't much chance of a hit. That's one reason I've been using them to strafe the barges...

Brad is correct. I was referring to our game.

Brad, you also had B-25Cs on naval attack during that turn that dropped bombs on the AKs and AGs. Not sure, but could be confusing those with the other?

Chez

Quite possible... there were a lot of attacks that turn...

[AirGriff]

I've just gotten to the point in my game where I can send bombers on skip bomb missions. The B-25C's seem to be getting hits with bombs as well as strafes. I'm on Bmod, by the way. I'm curious how much the strafe attacks hit what's actually inside the targets. I did some test runs a while back on P-40 strafe attacks against AP's and AK's. They never did much damage to the ship, but they destroyed up to 50% or more of the supplies inside. Not sure how this would do against troop transports, or if it holds true witht he bombers. It seemed the 50 cals worked well, but the 30's didn't do much to the cargo. I never did any tests on barges. My game got busy, and my opponent kicked me out of the PI, so I never returned to the testing. Thoughts on strafe damage to cargo?

[Feinder]

I just converted a sqdn of these bad-boys in my CHS game vs. Bilbow.  It'll take a few days for them to repair and then get them deployed.  But I'll do some "field testing" to see how well those 75mm cannons work.

I converted a sqdn with 92 exp, so if anybody is gonna hit with that cannon, they will.

-F- 

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I just converted a sqdn of these bad-boys in my CHS game vs. Bilbow.  It'll take a few days for them to repair and then get them deployed.  But I'll do some "field testing" to see how well those 75mm cannons work.

I converted a sqdn with 92 exp, so if anybody is gonna hit with that cannon, they will.

-F- 

LOL I have 5 squadrons of them now, but my opponent's navy is nowhere to be seen, so I can't test them out. [:(] I guess it's safe to say their fear factor alone makes them almost as good as another CV task force. [;)]

Jim