Stalin, Beria, and capitualtion?

[Montenegro]

The programme "War of the Century" is running currently tonight on the History Channel. In the first episode, they cite two instances of open discussion on surrender terms or suing for peace in '41.

The first instance is late July in Moscow in a meeting in a private room at a Georgian restaurant secured by Beria btw the Bulgarian ambassador and Pavel Zhitoplatov (sp here?) As documented by the broadcast, discussions of a land for peace proposal were discussed and a documet from the Soviet archives is shown to support the meeting's occurance. After the war, Zhitoplatov was tried for treason.

The second instance is in Oct '41 in Moscow at a meeting where Zhukov was to formulate with Stalin and Beria the defense of the city. The historian Victor Anfilov is shown recalling a discussion he had with Zhukov years later that upon arriving at this meeting, Zhukov overheard Stalin telling Beria to get in touch with the German High Command via their intelligence networks to see what the Germans would require for treaty terms to end the war.
They do not elaborate how far this particualr juicy bit of history went, if it even went beyond the confines of the meeting at all. My impression is that they are illustrating the options Stalin was mulling over while desperately holding out hope for a successful turn of events in Typhoon.

Regards,

Montenegro

[LyleGorch]

Montenegro,

I am watching the series as I write this, and it is very good. I think the NKVD man was named Sudaplatov, and he authored a book a few years ago regarding his service and the Venona revelations. ( I need to double-check my spelling on these names, but I think I am close.)

I recall reading once that Molotov met with a German emissary in mid-'43 to dicuss an armistice. Whether or not this meeting took place after Kursk I can't remember.

My favorite "what-if" involves the fate of Western Europe had the Normandy invasion failed. Would Stalin have stopped at the Rhine, or would he have gone all the way to the Channel? I think the latter.

Well, back to the show....

[Montenegro]

Originally posted by LyleGorch
Montenegro,

I am watching the series as I write this, and it is very good. I think the NKVD man was named Sudaplatov, and he authored a book a few years ago regarding his service and the Venona revelations. ( I need to double-check my spelling on these names, but I think I am close.)

I recall reading once that Molotov met with a German emissary in mid-'43 to dicuss an armistice. Whether or not this meeting took place after Kursk I can't remember.

My favorite "what-if" involves the fate of Western Europe had the Normandy invasion failed. Would Stalin have stopped at the Rhine, or would he have gone all the way to the Channel? I think the latter.

Well, back to the show....

Lyle,

Yeah, I knew I was being cyrillically challenged with this one on the spelling. In true cable fashion, I watched the first episode again at 11 to hear his name again. I am curious about the second instance more than the first, because this claim puts Stalin and Beria in a much different light than the archives would lead us to believe. The Sudaplatov meeting also involves Beria, but my guess is that this was some Trotsky stall tactic ala pre Brest-Litovsk treaty. Then again, July '41 was a very bad month for the Soviet state.

Regards,

Montenegro

[Mark_BookGuy]

Hi guys, I'm finally back online after an exciting #$^#$*&(% move.

This seems like a very thin story. I'll take a gander at some very recent scholarly sources and see what I can come up with. I've looked before in a number of bios and foreign policy histories, including a number written since the Soviet archives opened up, and found nothing. I'll keep looking.

Can you imagine Uncle Joe and Beria at lunch together? I'd sure hate to be the cook or waiter! A fly in the soup could mean Siberia.

[Montenegro]

Originally posted by Mark_BookGuy
Hi guys, I'm finally back online after an exciting #$^#$*&(% move.

This seems like a very thin story. I'll take a gander at some very recent scholarly sources and see what I can come up with. I've looked before in a number of bios and foreign policy histories, including a number written since the Soviet archives opened up, and found nothing. I'll keep looking.

Can you imagine Uncle Joe and Beria at lunch together? I'd sure hate to be the cook or waiter! A fly in the soup could mean Siberia.

Mark,

I think the Anfilov account is the one to peek at. Unless he's trying to sell some books or movie scripts, I don't know what he would have to gain by recalling the Zhukov story in a false light, especially considering Zhukov is as revered in Russia as Patton is here. The Sudaplatov account was coupled with a document on the meeting. I contacted the HC via fax and e-mail to request more info or at least a guide to research all this me self. So far, no reply. As far as the overall programme goes, this first episode certainly presents these 2 accounts as "new" information.

As far as lunch: I can picture them eating very saucy ribs with no napkins.

Montenegro

[LyleGorch]

If I can throw another two cents in..... I highly reccommend the movie "The Inner Circle," which is -- I think -- about ten years old. It is the story of Stalin's private film projectionist. Bob Hoskins played Beria and looked exactly like him, and the film as a whole was very good. It powerfully evoked the sense of dread the average citizen felt under Stalin.

Also, "Burnt by the Sun" is a must-see.

Enjoy the weekend!

[Mark_BookGuy]

Originally posted by Montenegro


Mark,

I think the Anfilov account is the one to peek at. Unless he's trying to sell some books or movie scripts, I don't know what he would have to gain by recalling the Zhukov story in a false light, especially considering Zhukov is as revered in Russia as Patton is here. The Sudaplatov account was coupled with a document on the meeting. I contacted the HC via fax and e-mail to request more info or at least a guide to research all this me self. So far, no reply. As far as the overall programme goes, this first episode certainly presents these 2 accounts as "new" information.

As far as lunch: I can picture them eating very saucy ribs with no napkins.

Montenegro

The Library of Congress lists six books by Victor Anfilov dealing with the war. I'd put my money on someone getting a third-hand recollection years after the fact as probably off the mark. Heck, I can't remember last week.

Joe and Beria not only wouldn't need napkins for ribs, they wouldn't need fingers. "You, comrade serf, feed me." I can see them smiling and saying "it is good to be king.... er comrade." (courtesy of Mel Brooks).

[GET TRANSPT]

Originally posted by LyleGorch
If I can throw another two cents in..... I highly reccommend the movie "The Inner Circle," which is -- I think -- about ten years old. It is the story of Stalin's private film projectionist. Bob Hoskins played Beria and looked exactly like him, and the film as a whole was very good. It powerfully evoked the sense of dread the average citizen felt under Stalin.

Also, "Burnt by the Sun" is a must-see.

Enjoy the weekend!

I've seen both movies, and I also recommend them. You might want to see up Sergei Eisentstein's "Ivan the Terrible", as it is widely belived to be allegorical to WWII events.

For comic relief, the mid 90's Australian comedy "Children of the Revolution" posits "What if Stalin had an Australian love child?" I enjoyed that film very much. It has great cast: Judy Davis, Sam Neill, F. Murray Abraham (as Stalin), Rachel Griffiths, Geoffrey Rush.