Overpowered Forts?

[ILCK]

I was re-reading Norman Stone's Eastern Front and he rather forcefully dismisses the effectiveness of WWI fortresses claiming that they fell early and quickly in the war and that none really did much - he credits the French success at Verdun to the trenches dug around the forts not to the forts themselves.

It is an interesting argument. I know that the Russians did have a lot of trouble with Przemyśl but some of that was due to the siege being lifted once. Does the game overpower forts in the early phases by making them what people at the time hoped/thought they would be rather than what they actually turned into?

[vinnie71]

Don't early war forts work like normal trenches? At least that's my impression...

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

Don't early war forts work like normal trenches? At least that's my impression...

They are just level 3, or in the case of Paris, level 4 trenches so they are not "special" except in their strength at the start. The observation that Stone makes is that everyone, really save the Russians, had the kind of high trajectory guns that rather easily neutralized the forts and so, in game terms, they don't deserve the lofty ratings they get. You try and assault Verdun, for example, in 1914 and you'll turn your German corps into shattered shreds of their former selves.

[boogada]

Ok Stones book is available in the local library. Gonna pick it up today. Its one of the well known WWI books I haven't read yet.

But I have an objection to make: I think its save to say that the fortifications in eastern France are not supposed to represent single forts but rather the line of fortifications the French had built. Its not Fort Vaux or Fort Douaumont or.... its the entire Verdun area that is fortified. And knocking every single one of them out with siege artillery would take a while, especially if its reinforced constantly and connected to the rest of the front. - thats what you call the French to have built trenches all along.
Liege... The Germans were able to take it out, but the overall strength of the Belgian army was too low to resist more. With a big army in the back they would have been able to hold out even longer.
This differs from Prezmysl, I think, because was rather one large Fort, and it fell because of starvation and no supplies.

So if its just one Fort, that might be isolated, then the game mechanics make a fort seem too strong. But if your line of trenches and built fortifications support each other you'll need hell of an army to break through.

[vinnie71]

ORIGINAL: boogada

Ok Stones book is available in the local library. Gonna pick it up today. Its one of the well known WWI books I haven't read yet.

But I have an objection to make: I think its save to say that the fortifications in eastern France are not supposed to represent single forts but rather the line of fortifications the French had built. Its not Fort Vaux or Fort Douaumont or.... its the entire Verdun area that is fortified. And knocking every single one of them out with siege artillery would take a while, especially if its reinforced constantly and connected to the rest of the front. - thats what you call the French to have built trenches all along.
Liege... The Germans were able to take it out, but the overall strength of the Belgian army was too low to resist more. With a big army in the back they would have been able to hold out even longer.
This differs from Prezmysl, I think, because was rather one large Fort, and it fell because of starvation and no supplies.

So if its just one Fort, that might be isolated, then the game mechanics make a fort seem too strong. But if your line of trenches and built fortifications support each other you'll need hell of an army to break through.

Well the French really never tried out to hold out in their forts. The Liege lesson was too easy to see.Basically artillery had overtaken fortification (for a very brief period) to such an extent that forts had become death traps. It is worth noting that the Germans didn't really dedicate a lot of troops to overcome Liege but a collection of brigades from different corps.

Another thing that one has to keep in mind is that all the forts in existence in 1914 were outmoded and outgunned. For example both the Germans and the French had argued hotly in 1871 to retain sufficient radius of land to build outlying forts. Yet by 1914, none of the forts on either side of the frontier could really hope to withstand bombardment from heavier guns beyond the reach of even the outlying forts. In effect their real 'service' in the opening year of the war was really to cramp the ability of the armies to manouver at will.

[EdinHouston]

actually the Paris fort is a mixed blessing for the French. By the time the Germans get to Paris and are ready to attack, the TE has certainly reached trench level 2 and probably level 3. Since fortifications are quite vulnerable to the German and AH siege artillery, its quite possible for the CP to knock down Paris from fortification level 4 to level 0 in one impulse... making Paris *more* vulnerable to attack than the neighboring TE hexes which would be trench level 3. In fact, as the CP, you dont want to use the siege artillery against Paris until the impulse you are actually going to attack it, because using the siege artillery in preceding impulses allows the TE to start boosting the fortification level with trenches.

I do agree that the French border forts are imposing. But this seems to be pretty historical, since the whole purpose of the Schlieffen plan was to avoid those fortifications and allow a decisive battle in the open by the end of the first month. I also agree that the AH/German border forts on the eastern front are quite powerful, and given the Russians 18 firepower units, they are very tough for the Russians to take without very heavy casualties, at least until Russian siege guns arrive.

But overall I dont think fortresses are too powerful. I think the game is very balanced and pretty historical in terms of the difficulty of attacking forts and trenches. If anything, its too easy, not too hard (after the first two turns).

[ILCK]

ORIGINAL: EdinHouston

I do agree that the French border forts are imposing. But this seems to be pretty historical, since the whole purpose of the Schlieffen plan was to avoid those fortifications and allow a decisive battle in the open by the end of the first month. I also agree that the AH/German border forts on the eastern front are quite powerful, and given the Russians 18 firepower units, they are very tough for the Russians to take without very heavy casualties, at least until Russian siege guns arrive.

The Germans built the plan thinking the forts would be imposing but they did not turn out to be. The Russians encountered issues because they didn't have the high-angle artillery that almost every other army used that allowed them to break forts at range and at their weaker spots - almost no forts were built to sustain top hits.

I'm not sure I'm 100% on board with Stone that the forts were useless but I think the overall power of the forts is overstated in the game.