NR Project

[John 3rd]

Additional Building Thoughts:
1.  I really like the additional Japanese escort ships with the CLs and excellent DDs.  To make it simpler I would have added a few more Shimakaze and the dozen or so Akizukis and been happy.
2.  Those Taiho's were planned so leave them for the Japanese player to have his options.
3.  I REALLY liked Terminus's AA CL; however, I think their conversion should start with the beginning of the war.  This would mean that the Japanese player would have to make further choices to pull them out of the line to upgrade them into capable escorts.
4.  I don't like the reduction in AA proposed by Elouda.  The existing ships should remain the same and AA changes be allowed as part of normal upgrades.  THAT is where I would put the changes.
 
As we have been chatting--it is all about OPTIONS for the Japanese player!
 
My .02...
 

[DuckofTindalos]

I found an error in my CLAA set-up with the 37mm mounts. I just set the new device into the old 25mm triple mount slot without regards to the fact that you can't actually build a triple mount for a stripper-clip fed AA gun. Would hate to be the loader trying to load the middle gun![X(][:D]

[Dili]

I very much doubt that Japanese navy will make a repetition of Shokaku. That will not be very usual unless the engineers would be the same and even then they would want to tweak this or that.

[DuckofTindalos]

Sure, they'd tweak this and that, but an Improved Shokaku would be more useful than more Taihos...

[John 3rd]

I have several sources that state Adm Yamamoto fighting with the Battleship Admirals to leave off the 4th Yamato in exchange for the 2 Improved Shokakus.  He envisioned 3 Yamatos supported by 4 Shokaku-Class as a masterful addition to the Kaigun.
 
The question I would throw out would be what to change for improving the Shokakus?  The tonnage and powerplant is certainly fine.  Ideas:
 
1.  Change the AA armament to something more effective.  Perhaps the better 5" guns that Terminus likes?  What about the 3.9" of the Moon-Class/Taiho?
2.  Could up enlarge the Plane complement?  If so by how man of what?  Be realistic...
3.  Ship protection/armor/etc???
 
The CVs would have been started in early 1940 with delivery around mid-1943.  In this regard they would make a perfect bridge to the Taiho-Class.  From the Japanese perspective the reinforcement/development line would make far better sense:
 
1941  Sho--Zui
1942  The Shadow Fleet Conversions
1943  2 Improved Shokakus
1944  Taiho
 
Thoughts?
 

[DuckofTindalos]

The Japs would have had to modify their plane-handling facilities and methods in order to increase the number of airframes onboard. Besides, they couldn't supply enough aircraft either way.

Some of the stuff that would have made IJN CV's more effective is impossible for us to simulate in the editor, like better plane handling or actually having control of CAP'ing fighters.

[Elouda]

Hey, some nice ideas being thrown around...

First, about the 'AA Reduction' -
I simply replaced the incorrect 5in/40 mounts on most DDs with 5in/50s like they really had - and these, while being a DP weapon, had horrible tracking speeds, meaning that they were good for a few salvos at approaching planes and thats it.
As we cant simulate that in game, I left them as they were - incapable of AA. The Type D mount of the Yugumo and Shimakaze is useful for DP work, so these DDs are more important as escorts, along with the Akizukis.
Lastly, this change makes the removal of one of the 5in/50 turrets for a pair of 25mm Triple MGs make a lot more sense, and actually ends up improving the ships AA rating significantly, unlike before when we lost a DP mount for that.

Secondly, Variants -
I definately intend to make some more versions of this along the lines you guys have been suggesting. The current version is only a baseline, as it replicates what was actually in the historic circle 4/5/5m building programs.
I can definately see a 'CV Variant' (- with the proposed 3/4 Shokaku, less BBs, ect), along with possibly an 'Enhanced Japan' (- with CLAAs and 37mm guns) variant for both that and the basic version.
I was intending to leave these until AE is out, and simply test how the new range of durabilities and other values play out using normal WitP, but if people want a variant like that so that someone would actually volunteer to test this, then Ill make one...[8|]

And lastly, Carrier designs -
I personally think if the Japanese manage to avoid their usual shipdesign megalomania, any follow ups to the Shokaku class would have seen little difference to the original - much like the later Taihos dont differ much from the original. I could see a few thousand tons more displacement, most of it on improved AA and possibly minor improvements to survivability in the form of better torpedo defences or armouring. Maybe finally get rid of the damn side-vent exhaust like the Taihos did. Im not sure about switching from the 5in/40 to the 5in/50-D for CVs, I think the Japanese considered it sufficient for AA purposes..

[vettim89]

I guess all this assumes that the Japanese War Council was looking at the long war scenario which historically they weren't. If this were true than perhaps the Shokaku's would be appropriate. From a casual observer though I think the only modifications that would be appropriate would be enhancing AAA. If indeed the hulls would have to be on the slips in 1940, then any other alteration would assume facts not yet in evidence. By that I mean that much of what has been suggested would only be considered by the Naval architects after war time experience. If they were already on the blocks in 1940, that would not be possible.

While it is true that mods are for people alter the game as they see fit, they further it drifts from historical reality the closer it gets to be fantasy. I don't think that is what Elouda is after here. His comments about altering AAA tell me he is interested in a historically based mod. Some of what has been suggested would assume a complete change in mind set by the Japanese Naval Architecture community. What Elouda proposes is not completely reworking the OOB but giving the Japnese player more flexibility. As a player who has never taken up the Japanese standard, one thing I would do is not build any Yamato class BB's. The ships were obsolete the moment they left the ways. What Elouda's mod would do is give more options for the Japanese player if he were to make that choice. As an AFB, I am cool with that.

[Elouda]

Indeed. Thats why even though I have no problem considering a 'More Shokakus/Smarter IJN' scenario, Im more intrested in first just building something that follows the historical intents and designs. As this comes togeather with changes in Durabilites and some of the other values, its maybe sounding like Im coming from a slightly odd angle here, since its basically two mods in one - the naval rebalancing, and the extra OOB additions.

Maybe I should have just released a 'clean' version with no changes to the OOB, just the other rebalancing changes. Not too late for that if theres interest.

And, like you, Im someone who leaves the Yamatos to rot on their slips until I have nothing else worthwhile to build. The problem with this was it really left me with only the mediocre Unryus to build, and that was it. Here theres more choice, though obviously 2 Unryus for 1 Taiho might not be so good a trade.....

[Dili]

Sure, they'd tweak this and that, but an Improved Shokaku would be more useful than more Taihos...

That is not my point. It's more of institutional behavior and engineer culture. Every Engineer/Department want to project their own wonder weapon or bridge or whatever. Designs just made 5 years ago have very low chance of being repeated unless it is for cheap proposes, most of tools might be already converted or melted. Of course if we want to take full emperor clothes and maximize all japanese options we might make that but doesn't seem to me very sensible.
Btw what was the influence of Midway(and other combats) in Japanese carrier construction. Did it affected Taiho project?

[Elouda]

Yes, Midway had an impact on the design of Taiho, and caused the ordering of several more of similar design, along with the Unryus. However the revised circle 5 program saw construction of the Unryus as being of higher priority than that of further Taihos.

Changes to the design included the addition of a further pair of DP guns, aswell as additional underwater protection and other improments to survivability. Ive also read that another improvement included better systems for handling ammunition using electrically-assisted systems as opposed to the manual ones in earlier CVs.

Some of these made it onto Taiho herself, though not as throughly as was intended for her followers.

[John 3rd]

This is where the Japanese would use that same lesson on the Improved Shokakus.  Midway would have occurred a year prior to their active deployment so you could augment the AA and slightly modify torp protection.  Doing this could be reflected with the better 5" gun or shifting over to the Taiho 3.9".  The smaller AA weaponry could be added to or enhansed as well.
 
Great discussion by the way.
 

[DuckofTindalos]

I know the Unryus could have definitely profited from improvements to their 12.7cm suite. They had ONE director for six dual mounts![X(]

[John 3rd]

THAT is stupid! 
 
If I could try to summarize what has been tossed around for greater Japanese construction flexiblity (these would be in addition to what is already there):
 
BB Shinano
2 Improved Shokaku-Class CV due in mid-to-late 1943
3 more Taiho
2 Oyodo-Class
4 Agano-Class
4 Shimakaze-Class
12 more Moon-Class
 
Anything I miss?
 
Conversion changes:
1.  Old Japanese CL to upgrade to CLAA
 
Could we allow conversion of the other two CS as well?  Chiyoda and Chitose convert starting January 1, 1943.  I would like to see Nisshin, Mizuho, as well as the other two be allowed conversion as soon as the Japanese player wants.
 
I know that Mizuho was slow but couldn't she be changed to a CVE?