IF !

[Japan]

Japan made the I-400 class with the sole intention of attacking Panama Channel with Dive Bommbers, destroying the
Top Gate, so wather could ren down to next, and flud the channel, then all gates would been destroyed as a
Domino Effect... BUT, thay comed up with this idea a bit late.





WHY DID THAY NOT INSTEAD?:
Move a AK into Panama when at Peace with USA, and then Exploded the ship when in Top Gate, would destroyed the Panama Channel (via domino effect as top gates would collaps causing massive fluddings and multiple gates to collaps) and USA would needed to transport its forces and resourses ect via South America instead of the shorter route via Panama... The results would be this if the Top Gate would collaps at the time, US made a new system for the gates after WW2 as soon as thay found out about the I-400 plot to destroy the channel... (to avoid others would do the same in future wars)...

So, why did not Japan do this with a Transport ship, while in Peace with US... 7th Dec 41 or something?



[8|]

[DuckofTindalos]

Why are you posting this thread here? It has nothing to do with AE.

[Elouda]

I think the last line makes it an inquiry about the possibility of such a scenario in AE. Maybe. If thats what he intended to ask.

Id guess the answer however, is that there isnt such a scenario intended for AE. Im sure someone will eventually mod one if people want it, but I'd personally feel it neuters the US too much...

Nice new sig by the way, Japan.

[Heeward]

I believe Japanese merchant shipping was prohibited from using the Panama Canal, when the oil embargo was implemented.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Elouda

I think the last line makes it an inquiry about the possibility of such a scenario in AE. Maybe. If thats what he intended to ask.

Id guess the answer however, is that there isnt such a scenario intended for AE. Im sure someone will eventually mod one if people want it, but I'd personally feel it neuters the US too much...

The off-map link data will be moddable, so it will be possible for someone to create such a scenario if they want to in AE, by removing the ability to move through the Panama Canal.

Andrew

[Knavey]

ORIGINAL: Heeward

I believe Japanese merchant shipping was prohibited from using the Panama Canal, when the oil embargo was implemented.

I seem to remember reading that somewhere as well...if I could only find it!

[bradfordkay]

That was actually a plot line in Hector Byewater's "The Great Pacific War" - a novel about a war between Japan and the US in the '20's.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Japan

Japan made the I-400 class with the sole intention of attacking Panama Channel with Dive Bommbers, destroying the
Top Gate, so wather could ren down to next, and flud the channel, then all gates would been destroyed as a
Domino Effect... BUT, thay comed up with this idea a bit late.





WHY DID THAY NOT INSTEAD?:
Move a AK into Panama when at Peace with USA, and then Exploded the ship when in Top Gate, would destroyed the Panama Channel (via domino effect as top gates would collaps causing massive fluddings and multiple gates to collaps) and USA would needed to transport its forces and resourses ect via South America instead of the shorter route via Panama... The results would be this if the Top Gate would collaps at the time, US made a new system for the gates after WW2 as soon as thay found out about the I-400 plot to destroy the channel... (to avoid others would do the same in future wars)...

So, why did not Japan do this with a Transport ship, while in Peace with US... 7th Dec 41 or something?



[8|]

Japan was very careful to pull its merchant marine back into home waters before it went to war. That was one of the indicators that had the allied intel people expecting an imminent outbreak of war.

[RevRick]

Oh, I love the word "If."  "If" a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his butt when he lands.

Or, "If" a buffalo had wings, we'd all need stronger umbrellas.

I love the "what if" scenarios we can all come up with for this game, and for others.

My favorite "what if" is "what if the nimnodes (polite Star Trek term for numbnutz) in Congress (has anything ever changed there?) actually realized the potential danger of Germany and Japan in, say, 1937 instead of waiting until 1940, and acted as if their heads weren't stuck where the Sun don't shine?  If history has taught us anything to this point, it still remains that the greatest danger is underestimating your enemies, real or potential.

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: Japan

WHY DID THAY NOT INSTEAD?:
Move a AK into Panama when at Peace with USA, and then Exploded the ship when in Top Gate, would destroyed the Panama Channel (via domino effect as top gates would collaps causing massive fluddings and multiple gates to collaps) and USA would needed to transport its forces and resourses ect via South America instead of the shorter route via Panama... The results would be this if the Top Gate would collaps at the time, US made a new system for the gates after WW2 as soon as thay found out about the I-400 plot to destroy the channel... (to avoid others would do the same in future wars)...

So, why did not Japan do this with a Transport ship, while in Peace with US... 7th Dec 41 or something?


[8|]

There is actually a short story by C.S. Forester (Hornblower) that describes a scenario like that; in this case it's a cargo ship manned by Germans posing as Swedes, and the plan was moving the ship into the lock, then fire torpedoes from underwater tubes into the lock gates in front of and behind the ship, and then blow the bottom out of the ship, thus blocking the lock (the ship being loaded with stones, coal or iron ore). The scheme is timed to coincide with the Pearl Harbor attack and is foiled by an attentive British DEMS gunner who is a shoemaker in civilian life and recognizes the shoes of the ship's captain as typically German made.

Can't remember the name of the story but it was in a collection of stories about US Navy ships in the Pacific.

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: mikemike


There is actually a short story by C.S. Forester (Hornblower) that describes a scenario like that; in this case it's a cargo ship manned by Germans posing as Swedes, and the plan was moving the ship into the lock, then fire torpedoes from underwater tubes into the lock gates in front of and behind the ship, and then blow the bottom out of the ship, thus blocking the lock (the ship being loaded with stones, coal or iron ore). The scheme is timed to coincide with the Pearl Harbor attack and is foiled by an attentive British DEMS gunner who is a shoemaker in civilian life and recognizes the shoes of the ship's captain as typically German made.

Can't remember the name of the story but it was in a collection of stories about US Navy ships in the Pacific.

Well, i did not mean as in AE..
So Guess in wrang forum...


I meant as what would happand if thay did so in real world, and why did thay not?
But Regardless, when somone goes to war, why not do something like that, who im sure would had a very hard effect on USA.

[:)]

[eloso]

ORIGINAL: Japan

I meant as what would happand if thay did so in real world, and why did thay not?
But Regardless, when somone goes to war, why not do something like that, who im sure would had a very hard effect on USA.

[:)]

This is really sort of a rhetorical question don't you think? If Japan coincided an attack like this with the other attacks of December 7th it would have been a devastating blow. I think if they had the means to attack the canal on December 7th with military assets it would have been a target.

Why didn't they do it? You'll need to read some more about Japanese culture and Bushido in general. Terrorist attacks aren't part of their game plan and I can't recall a moment in their history where they would do something like this. They had no problem in surprise military attacks on military targets. Even their submariners avoided sinking merchants as their culture made them feel it was dishonourable.

I don't think it would have a military effect today if it was done, but it would really have a profound economic affect on the entire world. A great majority of the navy is nuclear powered now as compared to then. The USA doesn't even control the zone around the canal anymore and hasn't for 8 years.

[rockmedic109]

ORIGINAL: OSO

ORIGINAL: Japan

I meant as what would happand if thay did so in real world, and why did thay not?
But Regardless, when somone goes to war, why not do something like that, who im sure would had a very hard effect on USA.

[:)]

This is really sort of a rhetorical question don't you think? If Japan coincided an attack like this with the other attacks of December 7th it would have been a devastating blow. I think if they had the means to attack the canal on December 7th with military assets it would have been a target.

Why didn't they do it? You'll need to read some more about Japanese culture and Bushido in general. Terrorist attacks aren't part of their game plan and I can't recall a moment in their history where they would do something like this. They had no problem in surprise military attacks on military targets. Even their submariners avoided sinking merchants as their culture made them feel it was dishonourable.

I don't think it would have a military effect today if it was done, but it would really have a profound economic affect on the entire world. A great majority of the navy is nuclear powered now as compared to then. The USA doesn't even control the zone around the canal anymore and hasn't for 8 years.

I could not classify such an attack as a "terrorist" attack and thus unworthy of of the Way of Bushido. The line between what can be considered a terrorist attack and the Way of Bushido and actual Japanese activities during the war is rather blurred. Consider the Rape of Nanking?

The Panama Canal would be a legitimate wartime target. And a good one except the attacking force would be vulnerable to interdiction due to the long range from Japan. And I believe such a sneak attack would be within the realm of Japanese planning. Pulling it off would be another thing, and the difficulties of pulling it off might be a reason to cancel the operation in it's infancy. Considering the number of pre-war plans made by militaries around the world, I would not be surprised if it was planned and just not carried out.

[Japan]

Well, thay for sure had the tools for it, and it could easely been done on December 7th at 0600 if thay wanted to.

Morale, Etichs, Religion and other "man made" limitations should not be a factor in war, (I think anyway).

Most "initial attacks" has been poor in very many wars, Vietnam, Korea, Indochina, Ethopia-Eritrean war, WW1 as well as WW2, actualy evan
(If seen from the "Al-quida" perspective), Evan thair attack on US was very poor preformed. 
A Rapport (Classefied in US) but not Classefied in Sweden, was sent from US to the Swedish Nuclar Authoretys regarding threat analezys of the Cooling Towers of Barsebäck Nucklar Center in Sweden, who is the same structure as India Point Nuclar Center in New York, the Rapport claims that if a Airliner Hit would happand to any of the cooling towers of India Point Nuclar Center in New York (or to Basebäck in sweden who is a very very simuler design), the loss of human life and economic damage would be astronomical. A blow like this to New York cant compare to the actual results of 9/11. (Now, do not missunderstand the intention here.)

Regardless of what perspective we see it from, we can be very happy, that whoever the enamy of the Western World is, in both WW2 and today, thay have both done a pritty poor job with the tools thay had availeble.

I dont hope that my intention is missunderstood, it is simply to point out, that the "initial" attack, who IMHO is a very important phase of a war, Japan as well as Al-quida failed totaly in the initial attack phase,  so did Germany, and so did the Allies in Korea and to some degree also in Vietnam. I think this types of things can be because of a side/faction having a very unrealistic analyze of what caind of effect thair initial attack will have, and to some degree this is influenced by poor inteligence or incompetent ledership. [:)] 

 

[mdiehl]

Japan made the I-400 class with the sole intention of attacking Panama Channel with Dive Bommbers, destroying the Top Gate, so wather could ren down to next, and flud the channel, then all gates would been destroyed as a
Domino Effect... BUT, thay comed up with this idea a bit late.

Like most "IF" scenarios involving WW2 and the Japanese, this one (which has been raised before) is only "viable" in some other universe, where the realities of time and space and laws of energy have been so drastically altered that an I-400 class boat can carry an aircraft capable of carrying a 100,000 pound bomb.

Seriously, it took *years* of British efforts and operational do-overs to figure out how to burst some of the Ruhr dams, and those were *much* more vulnerable than the Panama Canal gates.

The only way for the Japanese to close the Panama Canal and keep it closed would have been for the Japanese to invade, occupy, and successfully hold Panama. There was no ordnance in the Japanese naval arsenal that could be loaded on to ANY model of Japanese aircraft that could have significantly impaired the Panama Canal.

[Japan]

Well, not entierly correct.

Thay could very easy moved a AK ship in peace time into (posing as going throu) the Panama Channel, and blowed it when in the Top Gate.
Gravety would do the rest.   Of course, fiering Torpedos from the bottom of the AK ship would properbly do, but if i were them i would additionaly blowed it with a genormus explosive charge when moving throu the top doors of the Channal.
When that was done (not before), but after that was done, I would attacked Pearl Harbour. But well, i would also has assasination squads inside US already killing pearsons in Key roles, sabotour teams destroying vital rail lines ect ect well, its just so much I would do different in the "suprice attack" phase of the war.

[:D]

[mdiehl]

Thay could very easy moved a AK ship in peace time into (posing as going throu) the Panama Channel, and blowed it when in the Top Gate.

That'd do for the top gate but for nothing else, assuming that US authorities would have allowed an uninspected Japanese vessel through the canal in Dec 1941 -- something that I seriously doubt.

Gravety would do the rest.

Gravity would cause an overflow flood in the immediately adjacent lock, doing no damage to the lock and possibly some damage to the surrounding ground. The whole shebang would be fixed inside two months assuming that the entire top gate had to be rebuilt.

Of course, fiering Torpedos from the bottom of the AK ship would properbly do,

Nope. Firing torps or dropping dcs or bombs would be like gnats biting reptilucus' hind end. An entire AK full of explosives would undoubtedly have sufficed, but no Japanese ordnance in existence in 1941 could do the deed.

but if i were them i would additionaly blowed it with a genormus explosive charge when moving throu the top doors of the Channal.

Where said charge would come from is anyone's guess. As noted, a sufficient charge would be, well, ship sized, and easy enough to discover if inspected.

But well, i would also has assasination squads inside US already killing pearsons in Key roles, sabotour teams destroying vital rail lines ect ect well, its just so much I would do different in the "suprice attack" phase of the war.

Yeah, and flying monkies could have been predeployed in positions to bomb capital hill too, in this fantasy world of which you speak.

Assuming that all you indicate had been attemped, it would only have substantially increased the number of persons to be hanged during the US occupation of Japan.

[Japan]

Well, the plot with Panama channel was possible indeed, additionaly thay could easely had multiple ships in different looks ect if needed, so it would been no problem for them to do.  The Germans planned to send  a ship under Brittish flag  to do this!

Additionaly there were no inspections of Jap ships in Panama in 41,
German-Jap trade was to a large extent done throu  Spanish or Japanese ships untill October of 41.  This shows IMHO that Japan easely could lined up 3-4 AK ships filled with Explosives if thay would want to.  
US themselfs considered this a huge threat in 1949 (with regards to Soviet ships posing as xxx)..  But, im convinsed that it easely could been done if one would want to.

Also, assasinations of individuals is not complicated at all in peace time, and especialy not in a demacrocy (when you know the names of any commander above divition level...)  Murder Squads could easely assasinated peapole in very important positions, Everything from Nimitz to important MIT Professors ect.

Well.. there is many IF's,  but one thig is for sure,  thay could have done this, and far more if thay had planned for it, and accepted the fact that US will never accept a a peace with them after an attack on Pearl anyway.

When speaking of it, Japan had a pritty advansed chemical war program, thay did many tests in Mansuko on this,  maby that could been implemented into a "initial war start" phase? Maby if mass-produced in preperation for such an attack, maby it could been mailed to ALOT of important ppl? There is alot of ways...

[mdiehl]

Well, the plot with Panama channel was possible indeed, additionaly thay could easely had multiple ships in different looks ect if needed, so it would been no problem for them to do. The Germans planned to send a ship under Brittish flag to do this!

In my view the long term strategic effect would have lasted about 2 months. Probably why the Japanese and Germans never wasted any time on the scheme. More likely to be detected than to succeed, and if successful unlikely to accomplish anything of lasting strategic value.

Additionaly there were no inspections of Jap ships in Panama in 41,

Really? Do you have a source for that claim or is that merely a wishful statement?

The US considered the Panama Canal a valuable strategic asset from the day it opened, so on the face of it IMO your assertion of gullibility to Aks full of bombs under covert flag as a likely means of success strikes me as, at best, dubious and a long stretch.

This shows IMHO that Japan easely could lined up 3-4 AK ships filled with Explosives if thay would want to.

I don't doubt their ability to find container ships, I just doubt that they could have succeeded.

US themselfs considered this a huge threat in 1949 (with regards to Soviet ships posing as xxx).. But, im convinsed that it easely could been done if one would want to.

That was on US radar long before 1949. I think your "convinced" because you imagine it to be so. I think the idea is meritless with respect to plausibility and possibility of success.

Well.. there is many IF's, but one thig is for sure, thay could have done this, and far more if thay had planned for it, and accepted the fact that US will never accept a a peace with them after an attack on Pearl anyway.

Actually, they could not have done any of those things. The FBI had Japanese covert ops in the USA pegged by early 1941. Pretty much every time a Japanese national or any Nissei in communication with a Japanese national made a phone call or an inquiry at a gov't office, the FBI had a dossier on it. The US change in attitude inside the beltway so to speak occurred in May 1940.

When speaking of it, Japan had a pritty advansed chemical war program, thay did many tests in Mansuko on this, maby that could been implemented into a "initial war start" phase? Maby if mass-produced in preperation for such an attack, maby it could been mailed to ALOT of important ppl? There is alot of ways...

Again, dubious at best. And again, the retaliation for even attempting such a thing would have made Hiroshima and Nagasaki look like the better days of the war. Everyone had access to chem warfare research prior to WW2. No one used it because of the obvious implications of retaliation. (Imagine Doolittle's Raiders coming over Yokohama at night releasing a toxic gas and you'll get the idea. The plain fact is that Japan was FAR more vulnerable to that sort of thing than the US.)

[Japan]

I see some of your points, I also agree with you that with the tools in December 1941, it could been very hard to do many of the surgested things,
 
However any one could do them if thay had been planned for it from 1936 or from 1939 ect. 
Japan as any other nation in the world, should have had a plan for a "if we encounter war with xxx" type of plan, also if thay had planned the Japanese Econnomy better thay could without a problem traded Tungsten for Oil with Romania as well as Venecuela in a larger degree then what thay did, this could buy them time to make the planns and preperations for "a real" first strike, instead of the poor Pearl Harbour attack that thay actualy did.
 
I can agree with you that it would take alot more planning and preperation, but there is no doubdt that it could been done (If prepered for and planned for for a few years), - just imagine yourself the damage you could do to the US economy if you had 10 men and the weapons or explosivse of your choise?   (Now refering to vital railroad bridges, Oil Pipe lines ect ect)
 
But aigan, the whole point here I think, is that Japan was poorly prepered for War, and had "ideas" about US ever going to accep peace with them after 6-8 months... who of course would never happand. For this reason I think thay did a insanely Poor job in the Initial Attack. Evan if thay had sunk all the Pacific Carriers at Pearl, it would been very poor preformance, as thay did not evan have a "real plan" for how to Hurt US in the long Run.