WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement?

[wobbly]

Hi All;
Short time lurker, then long time player, then curious dog: sniffing his way back to teh forums to reminisce.
 
Sarconix:
It was my memory that I kept the game under control by playing it at a couple of levels: Essentially there is:
The strategic level: I am going to take the Gilberts in the next 6 months
The area level: what am I doing in SWPAC (obviously the Allied perspective):
The tactical level: What ships and planes are doing something for me in this area.
 
I just remembered the jist of what I was doing, and then use the situation within a game to remind me. As long as I knew the strategic goal I could decipher most of the rest. This meant no big lists of notes (although caveat here - there is no way you're going to get away without micromanagement when you're executing a large operation - but then you wont want to - this is the meat and drink of the game), and more importantly: no need to 'check every base every turn'. I just found that you don't have to. Most people play the game in single day turns. Other than the hot action it really doesn't matter than you forget to send the 102 Seabees to Fiji as soon as they are available etc Those people that love micromanagement will keep on top of these things, and they are 'likely' to play a more precise game. But if you have a good tactical understanding you can still hand them their backsides in battle after battle. For me that was enough. This meant that I could do a turn in about 20 minutes. Again this changed if there was a major engagement on. I would also, usually in the weekend, have a once over of bases by using the reports - check on levels of supply, fuel and such.
 
As in a war of this type, the 'hot' action is only really taking place in a few locations. I would always concentrate on those. When I didn't have the initiative, it was react, when I did, it was plan those encounters I expected.
 
The next thing to point out is that you are going to play the AI to get the feel, but then, as with most games, you will tire of its endless tactical blunders and lack of strategic awareness. So I can't recommend PBEM highly enough but it is also at this point that I feel I should warn you.
 
PBEM is the only way to play this game. I have made lasting friendships with the people I played against, and that is a testiment to something you've already noticed: the quality of people that this game seems to attract. My opponents were always ready to pull my leg if they hoodwinked me, able to cheer my successes when I hoodwinked them, and also seemed such quality guys to shoot the breeze with.

However, that turned out to be the problem. This game, if played like we usually do: a turn per day of the actual Pacific War, is of such a long duration, and the quality of the guy you are playing is such that 'you don't feel you can let them down'...
The game turned into a job. I had to provide a turn for my partner the next day no matter what happened. I mean, I wanted one back, I had to oblige him his turn to do this. While you can obviously organise a hiatus, that's all it was. So, for me, it wasn't the size of the game or its duration (although was more weighty), it was the obligation to my playing partner that eventually killed it for me. My wife literally laid down the law about that, and she was right.
 
So, that said and done, I will add my voice to the chorus of 'don't go anywhere else'. This is, without doubt, the best game I have ever played. You will get over the knowledge curve. You will make mistakes and not understand why things didn't work, but you can find the answer in these forums, and often from your opponent. I would recommend you play your first PBEM as the allies because you can absorb these failures while you learn far more easily. I would simply reiterate the advice given by another poster: do a little more, in another area, every turn: try changing altitude on a bomb run, try ferrying troops with transport planes etc. Slowly take control off the computer. While the game is "War in the Pacific", I always played it like it was a string of scenarios: Battle of Gilber Islands, Battle of Caroline Islands, Invasion of Malaya etc sticking them all together to make my "War in the Pacific". I won some of the scenarios, in which case on to the next scenario, and I lost some, in which case retire and look to try again or somewhere else.

[rogueusmc]

And that's how he, more often than not, handed me my proverbial a$$...good to see ya stranger.

[madgamer2]

I know most will agree with the statement that the best way to play this game is PBEM and I agree in principal to that statement but in fact it will be a long time till I even think about a PBEM game.
I to think that this is the best game of its kind ever developed and unleashed on the gaming public. This forum is to my knowledge the longest running one of its kind. It started day one of the release date and is still going strong. It does seem to attract quality people also.
Now It will be a long time till I get into a PBEM game because of that long learning curve, my old age and adifficulty in playing grand strategic level games in general. Its like I tell people who want to play the guitar " no matter how bad you want to play there are some who just don't have the ability to do so.
That is how I feel about WitP as a game. I have had it sense its release and it still is an overwhelming experience for me to play even against the Jap AI. I try to do a little more each turn and the list just gets longer....(SIGH)
I have been playing the Allies and playing the first three months over and over till I got some idea of what one has to do in the game. I can't play to Jap side because even after reading all that has been written about the productioon system I just can't deal with how to do it.
My current game is the first I went farther than Feb 42. It is early Mar 42 and I made my first invasion at Siapan and am not doing that as well as I should so will be doing it a few times to get the feel of how it should go.
Just playing the Allies against the Jap AI on normal is fun for me and I can only wonder how bad it would be if there was another human person instead of the computer.
The BIG problem is the time involved just for one turn...at the rate I play it would take longer to play the game than it did to fight the war. LOL. I do like reading AAR's and reading the various posts about different aspects of the game posted by some players who are a lot better than this old guy. Perhaps I can find a Jap human player who is as bad as I am one of these days

[Barb]

A little hint for Japanese production:
Sum together all resources, oil, heavy industry, manpower on area base (e.g.: Korea, Manchuria, North China, Vietnam+Thailand, Burma, Philipines, Hokkaido, Honshu, Shikoku, Kyushu,...).
Apply production requirements and outputs for them (e.g: 1 resource point gives 1 supply + resource used in HI, ...)
You will get list with 4 things for each area to deliver or carry away daily (resources, oil, fuel, supply). Multiply it by convoy turnaround time.
Result: Say you will need to deliver 220 resources to Korea * 10 days convoy cycle (4 there, 1 unload, 4 back, 1 load) = one 2200> capacity AK will carry what the area will need until it is back. AI will deal with the rest moving resources around (dont forget to add some surplus capacity).

[Zenra]

I just have to jump in here and echo what many of the others are saying – you do NOT have to dive into all the minutia, memorize all the formulae, or spend hours reviewing every unit and base every move to really enjoy this game. Like many, I have precious little time to play, but over and over again I keep coming back to WitP. Last night, in fact, I had one of the most enjoyable gaming experiences ever when I took just a couple of hours to play the Coral Sea scenario after a several months hiatus from playing.
The Coral Sea scenario is only a couple of weeks long and plays on a limited map without production. Still, there are a lot of units but at least as the Allies I really only need to know a couple of things and act accordingly: Japan is going for Port Moresby and Guadalcanal. So, all I did the first turn was head my CVs NNW, load up the Americal Div on APs headed for Lunga, and throw all my subs into a TF headed for the Lae / Rabul area (where you can later split them up into single-boat TFs). Second turn I transfer some bombers to PM and notice the Aussie cruiser TF isn’t really doing anything and so I send them over to cover the APs headed to Lunga. In the mean time the boys at PM are putting up a very credible fight against strikes from Rabul and Lae, and Japanese forces land at Gili-Gili, Buna and Lunga. While I keep hitting the Next Turn button as my TFs proceed as ordered I watch with approval as the bombers from PM start hitting the airfield at Lae and the unloading transports at Buna. Then the IJN CV group shows up around Lae and starts joining in the missions from Rabul and Lae against the airfield at PM – I transfer up more fighters (and start a Base ENG force toward PM from Brisbane) and watch those expensive carrier planes fling themselves again and again against the CAP at PM while my bombers there continue reducing the Lae airfield to rubble.
Meanwhile, the small Aussie cruiser group arrives at Lunga in the middle of the night and completely surprises a Japanese CL/DD TF there! They send three hulls to the bottom, severely damage the rest, and they don’t suffer a scratch themselves!! The next morning my CV group is in range just SW of Lunga and finishes the job as the survivors limp back up the slot, and then launch an afternoon strike against a follow up group of AKs headed in, presumably with supplies. Somewhere during all of this the Americal division has unloaded at Lunga and the much smaller Japanese force finds itself unsupplied and overwhelmed.
OK, well I didn’t intend to write an AAR here. The point is that I invested a couple hours time, the vast majority of which was spent watching all of this action instead of micromanaging orders, and was rewarded with some excellent surface action, numerous air to air battles, several carrier air naval strikes and a developing ground battle. Granted the expected CV v CV “Battle of the Coral Sea” never occurred, but that was fine with me as PM was still safe, the air groups at PM had seriously depleted the IJN carrier air groups, and I completely ruined their day on Guadalcanal. And best of all I was reminded why I like this game so much, and that I don’t have to spend weeks tweaking things up for a Grand Campaign in order to enjoy it.

[morganbj]

Sarconix,
 
Don't let the game fool you.  Once you get used to the interface, playing the game actually goes pretty fast.  I get two or three turns in an hour very easily, sometimes more.
 
Sure, it takes a while to get the whole war fought, but it's loads of fun.  It's not a "one night stand."  It's a "relationship."
 
And remember, once you get things moving, you don't HAVE to check everything every turn.  I spend a lot of time the first few turns, but then only check on some units' progress every few turns.  Once I get reinforcements loaded on ships and pointed to their destinations, for example, I usually just let 'em ride, scanning the rear areas every so often to make sure that nothing is going astray.
 
The learning curve is not all that great to get good game going.  There's a lot of detail that you don't need to worry about at first.  For example, I played several games before I ever worried about task force commanders.  I may have missed a little action because of that, but I just didn't want to be bothered.  After a while, when you wonder why your task forces are running and not fighting, you can start being more selective about who's in charge.
 
The depth of the game is high for those who want it, however.  Now that I've played WITP for a couple of years, I find myself being immersed more and more.  But again, not every turn, not every unit.  Usually I just play the game.
 
It's just a facinating game of the period that teaches about the PacWar better than anything I've ever seen.  It's not a true simulation, of course, but it's as close as $75 can get you.  Besides, it's a better addiction than most other things.
 
Oh, and my wife doesn't care how long I play.  We're "empty nesters" and spend most of our evenings at home anyway.  She likes the fact that I hide in the back room playing WITP until my eyes bug out ("Just one more turn.").  It's cheaper than other hobbies I would otherwise spend my money on.[:D]
 

[Sarconix]

I'm catching up on this, and I must say thanks for all of the responses!  These are some compelling arguments for diving into this deep ocean.  Some more detailed questions based on what was said:

madgamer said "Winning against the Jap AI is not my objective but to have fun and enjoy the game which I am doing to the max."  It really sounds like WITP is more about the journey than the destination, e.g. like madgamer playing the first three months several times.  So how do you know when to stop?  Do you set your own victory conditions  and quitting conditions?

Mitchell mentioned that in the Coral Sea scenarion you know that "Japan is going for Port Moresby and Guadalcanal."  Doesn't that give you (the Allies) an unfair advantage, i.e. hindsight?  On related note, how much randomization is there in the scenarios?  (you have the same map every time, of course, but what is to stop you from eventually memorizing where the enemy is coming from or going to?)

Also, thanks Mitchell for demonstrating that short-ish games are possible.  I have trouble holding my attention in a strategy game for more than a few (real) days or weeks at a time, so I would definitely for for the short and small games if possible.

wobbly said "The game turned into a job."  But was it still fun?  If it was still fun, then what was your wife right about... the time commitment?  Can you find PBEM partners that can wait longer between turns?  (There is no way that I would be able to do daily PBEM turns.)

A few of you mentioned turning on some automation (computer control).  I am still not clear on what all the options are.  I know the computer can run a zone, but someone mentioned having it run all the subs?  Or leaving all the Allied nations but the British up to the computer?  What about getting supplies to bases?

A few of you also mentioned that you don't really need to track each TF and base every turn.  That's good to know.  Taking that a step further, can you get notifications when things are going wrong, e.g. a base running low on supplies, or ships out of gas?

One more thing that I don't think was mentioned: how do you deal with the turn results?  Are the post-turn reports good?  Do you even watch the turn resolution?  (e.g. with animations)  Watching the turn resolution is rather confusing, since a lot can happen related to orders you issued several turns back (WEGO format).  This is unlike IGOUGO, where you see an immediate effect for each move... but then you are giving tactical orders, which is not really what WITP is about.

Thanks again, folks!

(As an aside, I also like that this forum is about more than just WITP.  There are all kinds of discussions about the Pacific War in general going on here... good stuff.)

[niceguy2005]

One way to lesson the requirements for micromanagement is to play the AI. You won't need to maximize your efficiency and can just let stuff go. I'm playing an AI game in my spare time right now as Japan to learn about Japan and the production system...and hopefully to finish a game. I pay close attention to production, by choice, but let a lot of other stuff go. I can play about 10 turns in 3 hours - which is lightening fast for me.

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

UV is to WitP as neanderthal is to homo sapiens. It's probably 1/20 of the geographical area and 1/10 the unit numbers (if not less). It goes much quicker than WitP.

Probably a better anology is "UV is to WitP as the mis-perceptions about Neanderthals is to homo-sapiens." I think most anthropologists today have concluded that the Neanderthals were actually a smarter, more sophisticated species, compared to homo-sapiens of the time.[;)]

[madgamer2]

Well Sarconix everybody should learn the game the way you seem to be doing. Welcome to the best darn forum anywhere with some great folks here to help. I will deal with the two things I contributed to in your latest post

1. Playing the first several turns over several times. I do this because I want to get familiar with the game routines within the same basic strategic situation. I can then try different things and see what works and what does not. The game I am now in against the Jap AI is in late march andI am doing well but when the PI falls (soon very soon) I will be a little further back in victory pts.
Also I find that the begining three months does not have near the number of ships,TF's and other things to do. To me it seems ther is more to do as the game goes on but all the basic routines are present in the first three months. This is a habit I have used in all the strategic level games I have played and it works for me but for someone else?.....perhaps.

2. Let the computer run the subs for both sides. I have found that the sub game can take a lot of time and the total number of ships sunk is larger with the computer running the show LOL. I indicate where I want the subs for the allies to go then put them on computer control. When one shows up in a harbor I refuel it and send it on its way.
You may want to have some subs go to certain places for your own reasons and you can do this. I found that the time it took to play the sub game was not worth it to me with all the other stuff you need to do.
In my current game I have made an invasion of Siapan and my two 2CV air TF's have sunk a large number of transpors around Siapan and even put a dent in a couple of Jap CA's. This has brought the total number of ships sunk (as of mid Mar.42) to about 53 each. The Jap has more pts because I lost the Repulse due to a stupid error (I forgot to change the home port) and it sailed back into Jap air attack range and went to the bottom.

3. Computer China? I do this when playing the Jap AI but against a human you will need to play it rather than let the computer do it. I just have enough to do as is but when I get better at the game I will play China as well.

Madgamer

[Grotius]

I'm not sure if this game has already been mentioned, but you might check out the forthcoming War Plan Pacific.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/KE_Studios ... _page.html

I have no idea if it will be any good, but it looks interesting.

[wworld7]

It was mentioned months ago.

[Fallschirmjager]

Uncommon Valor would be my choice.
A $30 price tag is hard to beat, it is patched to the point where bugs are small and infrequent.

It also has a few advantages over WitP
You can send heavily damaged units back to Pearl Harbor/Kure where they will be repaired and upgraded and may even be sent back to you.
Messing around with variable arrival times and the % of commitment to the South Pacific can make for completly different games each time you play.
The map is only 30 miles per hex which makes the map much better than WitP and it's giant 60 miles hexes.
There are several large and small scenarios to get you going and to keep you playing for months.
And finally the air groups and LCUs are broken down as small as batallion size and most of them are regiment size as compared to WitPs division and corps sizes. Most air groups are squadron size as compared to the group size in WitP

So in short I would reccomend UV and if you really enjoy it you can make the step up to WitP

[Sarconix]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

I'm not sure if this game has already been mentioned, but you might check out the forthcoming War Plan Pacific.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/KE_Studios ... _page.html

Interesting, especially this part:

... War Plan Pacific makes commanding entire fleets and air groups highly intuitive, allowing gamers to easily concentrate on strategy rather than being bogged down in minutiae as would be expected in a game featuring such a massive scope of conflict. Not only that but War Plan Pacific was designed from the start to be playable in a single session! That's right, a Pacific War title that doesn't take as long as the real war to complete.

Them's fightin' words! [;)] But in all seriousness, this seems like its for a different audience... looks too abstract. (Entire war in a few hours?)

EDIT: I see now that this other game was covered in another thread, with roughly the same impression.

[Erik Rutins]

You're playing one of Gary's designs, but you've completely missed another which fits the bill.

Gary Grigsby's A World Divided covers all of WWII in grand strategy, including the Pacific. IMHO that's the way to go if you want both a simpler game that's still realistic and want to see the conflict of priorities that a fully global game creates.

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/330 ... ld.Divided