WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement?

[Sarconix]

Hey folks,

I'm a long time reader, first time poster. I have a "simple" question: what is a good alternative to WITP that has less micromanagement?

To elaborate: I have been reading about WITP, and I am fascinated with the concept. Here we have the whole Pacific War in a computer game. I can tell just about everyone here loves it: this is a forum with over half a million posts on one game. Only the following of Hearts of Iron 2 over at Paradox can compare. I am particularly impressed with the WITP AARs that go on for months, especially the very clever Hibiki story.

But... I think this is too much for me. I tried WITP, mostly just the tutorial to be honest, and I found the whole thing to be overwhelming. Some have said in other posts that the learning cliff is surmountable, and I believe it. What I don't think I can get past is the micromanagement: the game seems to require a huge investment of time and attention that I simply can't afford, though I wish I could! To be somewhat more precise, the real "action" of the tutorial should have taken perhaps an hour to play, not three hours (or more).

Which brings me back to the question. I like the concept and setting of WITP, i.e. the whole Pacific War under your control, but is there a higher-level and faster-paced game that does the same concept justice? I am not looking for an RTS here; for example, the pace of Civilization 4 seems about right, where you can complete a decent campaign in 20 hours or so. Some titles I have looked into:

• There is a Civ 4 mod that covers the Pacific War (part of Road to War), but that is far too abstract. I want real ships, planes, and troops, in real numbers.
• Heart of Iron 2 seems to do a decent job with the scope and pace, but the naval and naval aviation facets of the game are not that fleshed out. (I think it calls the USS Lexington a Yorktown-class ship!) Perhaps there is a mod that does a better job?
• Carriers at War (CAW), also from Matrix like WITP, looks promising, though perhaps too fast and limited in its scope: it has short missions, not campaigns. I will probably buy it, though: as someone else here said, it looks like a fun game of "checkers" compared to WITP "chess."
• Pacific General from 1997 is interesting, but is too tactical and (again) abstract.
• It may also be that Uncommon Valor (UV) is the right game, but I am pretty sure that it is really not that much simpler or faster than WITP. That being said, UV does seem to offer more short campaigns. Perhaps there is a mod for WITP or UV that simplifies it in the way I am thinking?

So perhaps you can tell I have been giving this some thought! That being said, I won't be surprised that such a game does not exist. However, I decided I should check in with the experts here to be sure.Of course, if this was already covered in another thread, just point me in the right direction. I checked, but I may have missed something in the 32,000 threads. [:)]

Thanks for any suggestions!

[goodboyladdie]

There is another thread at the moment where the poster talks about his own faltering first steps and how rewarding the game is once you get over the first hurdles. Read and be inspired. It really is the best game I have ever played. I can hardly wait for AE (or Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich).

Here is the link to the thread... tm.asp?m=1563206

[Frido1207]

Not sure if this is the one you´re looking for,
but i´m waiting for this:
http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=207&Itemid=301

[Elouda]

ORIGINAL: Sarconix
[*] Heart of Iron 2 seems to do a decent job with the scope and pace, but the naval and naval aviation facets of the game are not that fleshed out. (I think it calls the USS Lexington a Yorktown-class ship!) Perhaps there is a mod that does a better job?

The C.O.R.E. modification does a wonderful job of bringing the game closer to reality in my opinion (particularly naval warfare). Its still not perfect, but far better than stock HoI2. Theres a beta ongoing for the next release, 0.4, which is due out in a few months - I'd wait for it instead of getting the current one, as its not quite complete.

http://www.terranova.dk/viewforum.php?f=3

Of course, you could wait for Hearts of Iron 3...


Another game due out in the next months in Supremacy at Sea, by NWS - their games are generally very good, if a little rough in terms of graphics. Definately the next thing on my buy list.

http://forums.navalwarfare.org/showthread.php?t=4

[LargeSlowTarget]

Good old "Pacific War" comes to mind - less micromanagement, faster pace, yet the whole Pacific War under your control. [/align]

[Heeward]

I have to agree with LargeSlowTarget - and it's free from Matrix Games.

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: Sarconix

Hey folks,

I'm a long time reader, first time poster. I have a "simple" question: what is a good alternative to WITP that has less micromanagement?

Since nothing else quite matches WitP, another alternative is to just play part of it. For example, you could try some of the tactical scenarios (Coral Sea, etc) as they can be completed in less than a lifetime (a LOT less, actually!)

Another alternative is to play just one of the Allied nations. I once played purely as the Netherlands (turning over all the other regions to the AI), and it was a damn short campaign! And you could probably do something similar with Britain and China. It works pretty well, and the turns fly by, although every now and then some AI general will issue conflicting orders to one of your units (which is actually closer to reality than the "God Control" of running the whole faction).

If nothing else, this is one of the easiest ways to surmount the "learning cliff".

[Sarconix]

Hey folks,

This is great feedback. Let me consider each suggestion in turn:

Fear of WITP: I did have a look at that thread, but it still sound like even if you understand it, it still takes a very long time just to execute decisions, and there are a lot of decisions to be made. For example, sending troops from a friendly base to an enemy base takes far more clicks and choices than it should. Am I wrong about that? I am thinking of a game with 5-10 minute turns, but it looks like WITP has 30+ minute turns. The thread does have some good advice, though, if you have the raw time to dedicate to the game.

Strategic Command 2: This is interesting; I didn't realize a Pacific theater version of the game was in the works. I am a bit skeptical whether the engine will handle it well enough. We'll see what the demo and reviews have to say when it is ready. I wonder if Slitherine is planning something like this for the Commander (Europe at War) engine.

HOI2 C.O.R.E.: I'll have to give this a try. So far the HOI2 engine seems to be about the level of detail I am talking about: relatively coarse decisions to make, and it doesn't take many clicks to do it. The real-time format is a bit cumbersome, though. Does anybody know if there is a Pacific War (full war) scenario with decent AI?

Pacific War: Now this is interesting. I actually downloaded and tried it tonight, and I can see how it has less micromanagement. There are automated convoys, and ships for TFs can auto-selected, for example. (Can you have this in WITP?) It is clear to see how this preceded UV and WITP.

However, it still has the WEGO format, and I find it very easy to lose situational awareness: you spend 30 minutes planning potentially dozens of moves, then watch it all execute at once in a blur, all the while having forgotten what you did in the planning phase. (How do you guys manage this?) I find the IGOUGO and real-time formats to be easier to understand: you do something, and get an immediate result.

Also, the UI and production values in Pacific War are just terrible, even for 1992, but that is probably common knowledge. I suppose I could get used to it, but I would rather spend more time in WITP or UV, which are somewhat better in this regard. Speaking of production values, I wish WITP was even better. I am not asking for much: something like HOI2 or Civ 3. I actually like combat animations and sound effects... that is my reward for good planning. [:)] (though I can understand how animation in a WEGO game can be intolerable)

WITP Small Scenarios: I thought about this, and noticed that UV seems to have more small scenarios, so UV might be better in this regard. But there is still the micromanagement factor: I agree that the turns would be shorter because there are fewer units to deal with, but it still seems like a lot of work to execute even simple decisions. Out of curiosity, how long (in hours) would it take to play the Coral Sea scenario or other multi-week scenarios?

Thanks again, all! I remain impressed with the community here.

[rockmedic109]

I play WITP on my nearly three year old laptop.  The turns take 10-15 mins to run with graphics on and minimal delay on the preferences {and I usually ESC out of most of them}.  Takes 20-30 mins to set orders but I go fairly slow.  It may not be 5 minute turns, but 30 minute turns {making orders then running the turn} is not bad for a game of this scope.
 
The first month or two {game time} will take longer {up to twice} untill you get a system down for doing your turn and war starts gets less furious.  The micromanaging becomes second nature and not at all burdensome, but I spent almost a year with UV before WITP came out.  The learning curve for WITP was somewhat straightened and any mistakes can be chalked up the same mistakes that can or were made in the war due to inexperience.

[anarchyintheuk]

UV is to WitP as neanderthal is to homo sapiens. It's probably 1/20 of the geographical area and 1/10 the unit numbers (if not less). It goes much quicker than WitP.

[invernomuto]

If you like WW2 naval warfare, CAW from SSG is a good game but as you pointed out it is really easy and has little micromanagement compared to WITP. Some say it's too "easy" and I agree with them (little micromanagement, few scenarios, most is handled by the AI so there are few things to do left to the player...) but the latest patches improved the game and introduced new scenarios and "mystery variants".
It's a fun game focused entirely on carrier engagements, give it a try.

Bye

[Sarconix]

Regarding turn length, I was thinking of 30+ min just to issue your orders, but it sounds like practice will bring that down a bit. Are there options for computer automation (optional micromanagement), e.g. selecting task force ships as in Pacific War? I don't mind turning over control to the computer if it increases the pace a bit.

Regarding UV, I think some UV players might take issue with the neanderthal comparison. [:)] But aren't the play mechanics basically the same as WITP, just a smaller theater and fewer units? I'm mostly taking issue with the mechanics of getting even simple tasks accomplished. As I said above, Pacific War seems to have simpler mechanics, but with the same scope as WITP. The WEGO format is still bothersome for me, though.

Regarding CAW, thanks for the validation on that. For some reason I am really into WW2 carrier history as the moment, and it looks like CAW will be a good pick. Too bad it's not more popular. On a related note, I just bought all four of the Osprey books on USN and IJN carriers. I also found this period article interesting, in case you haven't seen it: http://www.history.navy.mil/download/pacific.pdf.

Thanks again for the feedback. There's still no obvious pick for me, but it is interesting to hear the different perspectives.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Good old "Pacific War" comes to mind - less micromanagement, faster pace, yet the whole Pacific War under your control. [/align]

Agree. Played this game for years before WitP came out. Weekly turns.

[madgamer2]

there is only ONE! War in the Pacific......I have a hard time even playing the AI as the Allied player but I love it. so as had been said (much better by others)

1. like real life you will miss some things (or lots of things) but do something each turn
2. its a long game and if ya loose a fleet or such just keep playing

I have been playing sense it was released and am only now starting to deal with the scope of it. I make a list of things I missed each turn and all I can say is the list IS getting shorter.

Just play it and don't worry about what you did not do...if ya love it just play or go back to one of those games you mention......as for HOI 2 lets see if the forum is still here as long as this one. They do not support forums for older versions of games like the first HOI. This forum will still be here when HOI2 is just dust.

WitP FOREVER!!!!

Madgamer

[Sarconix]

ORIGINAL: madgamer
there is only ONE! War in the Pacific......

WitP FOREVER!!!!

This is a diehard group, I must give you that!

I'd like to ask about rules. Somewhere in the middle of the 220-page manual is the following:

Runway damage can limit the air operations at a base. A strike Mission may only be launched
from a base with runway damage less than 20+(Airfield Size *5). Patrol and CAP Missions may
only be launched from bases with runway damage less than 50+(Airfield Size *5).

... and there are plenty more of those where that came from. Is it important to know this sort of thing? A game like Civ 4 has some "minor" rules that you can ignore without much penalty, and still enjoy the game: knowing all the rules only gives you a slight advantage.

On a related note, following some comments above, is UV really simpler than WITP, or just smaller? It doesn't have production, atomic bombs, and uh... Chinese partisans, but isn't it basically the same as putting all but one theater under computer control in WITP? I ask in part because the manual is 70 pages compared to 220 pages, but that may or may not mean it is one-third the game. I'm tempted to just put down the $30 and see for myself.

EDIT: Another details or rules question: can you basically ignore leaders and pilots if don't want to deal with them, or will that be too much of a handicap in practice?

[Zebedee]

If you're tempted to pay for UV, I'd say bite the bullet and buy WitP. Play some of the scenarios until you feel confident enough to play a grand campaign. UV isn't really less complex, more like a scenario from WitP to be honest.

People learn in different ways - for me the manual for WitP was utter gibberish until I'd played a few turns and could then relate it to what was happening in the game. Play enough turns and most rules become second nature as in any game. There's enough info on this forum, enough stickied links to good threads with useful info and definitely enough friendly people here who will answer any question you can think up to make the learning curve far less daunting than it would appear.

But it really is a true wargame of the old school. And I appreciate that may not be for all tastes - micromanagement doesn't float everybody's boat and a certain amount is inevitable in this kind of game.

[Sarconix]

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

If you're tempted to pay for UV, I'd say bite the bullet and buy WitP. Play some of the scenarios until you feel confident enough to play a grand campaign. UV isn't really less complex, more like a scenario from WitP to be honest.

Are there good, short, and small scenarios for WITP, that work with the AI? (included or fan-made) My understanding is that UV comes with more of these, which would be an advantage for it.

[Akos Gergely]

Definitely try WitP. I was in the same boat as you (I think most of us were) and I had the game for a time but did not dare to start it up seriously. Then I went into it deeper and it got me attracted ever since.

Actually the micromanagement is really part of the deal, I mean that gives the real startegic sense! You really feel extremely good when a well planned invasion goes through as clockwork - right troops in place on right ships, good recon, good bombardment with minesweeping, CVs providing protection, LBA coming in bombarding etc.)

To answer your specific Qs, yes there are some good shorter scenarios and I'd recommend in particular Nik's Guadalcanal mod. It has about the same units and map that are UV covers but with a much better (witP) game engine. I think that scenario can be played in a weeks time.

BTW usuually the first turns take the most time then it gradually decreases and has some peeks when you paln an invasion etc. - this is particularly true for smaller campaigns like this, because yo only have one theatre to concentrate on; but this has the negative side as well, 'cos there are times when there is a lull in the action and for many turns one just watches routine air attacks and submarines moving around and that's it.

[Knavey]

It comes with plenty of cut your teeth senarios...I suppose the most popular is probably Coral Sea.
 
You could also try what my brother Feinder does...only play as the Brits.  It has all aspects of the game covered SEA, Air and Land and as a whole is a lot more manageable.  Put the other zones on Computer Control (not normally recommended but its a learning curve) and then just let the game unfold.  I imagine that it gives you more of a sense of a "what are those crazy USA guys doing" since you are not in charge, but it keeps your forces manageable until you get the game mechanics down.

[madgamer2]

Due to the large amount of management in the game you could:
1:Against the AI let the computer handle the sub game (you can place them then let the computer move them.
2. Again against the computer let it handle China especially if you play the Allies (recommended for first timer's) heck I can't even begin to understand the Jap production so I am Allied only player.

I trust the computer in that if I try to do something and can't then I ask a question here on the group. Also do play tutorial as it will help a lot. No matter how hard you try you will not get everything done in one turn that you want but its a long game and just do something each turn.
I have played then first several months of the game Dec-Feb42 several times and this is the first time I made it to Mar. 42 and invaded an Island Saipan and have learned a lot about the game. The AI is not that hard to play at normal and you can turn on some things to give the Allies a little advantage.
After all the times I played the Dec31-Feb42 part of the game I never came with in 3000 points of the AI jap till now. Ship losses are even in number but I have sunk mostly transport stuff and the AI Jap has more pts as he got a lucky shot at the British BC out of Singapore and sunk it.
Take some of the advice here like starting with a shorter game. I figure about the time I can begin to handle this game AE will be out and I can start over again.
As far as UV goes save your money. Winning against the Jap AI is not my objective but to have fun and enjoy the game which I am doing to the max.

welcome to the forum and good luck!

Madgamer