Best in class

[fuelli]

Yes that was me in my first PBEM [:)]. I did not beef up anything at PM and then two or three BB groups suddenly started the bombardement with at least one following up every day. Airfield damage never went down under 50 anymore. Lost nearly my whole airforce there. Not only bombers. But the battle for Australia was kind of fun for me nevertheless. And I learned alot.[:D]

[tocaff]

I've won by AV and been done in by it a # of times in PBEMs.  Against the AI, well you can't count that as it's not a worthy opponent.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: tocaff

If the Japanese had held Guadalcanal and Tulagi would they have gone into the NHs to disrupt the supply line to Oz?  Good what if question.

If the Japanese had taken PM I seriously doubt that they would've gone into Oz as the manpower really just wasn't available and the supply lines became just to long.

If there had been a better level of understanding on the part of the army for the need to cut off Australia from America, not for the purpose of invading Australia, but for the purpose of preventing it from being turned inot the England of the Pacific, then the Japanese might have pushed beyond the Solomons into the New Hebrides.

However, the important point isn't whether, or not the Japanese might have expanded further. The important point is whether, or not, losing the New Hebrides would have cost the Allies the South Pacific Campaign. Taking the New Hebrides would simply mean the Americans would fall back to Somoa and continued the fight. Since the game can't depict that scope it takes the totally lame path of awarding the Japanese a victory in the South Pacific Campaign for something that would NOT have brought them victory.

I don't think the av is about what would have brought Japan victory in the war. It's either one of two things: it represents Japanese victory in the South Pacific campaign by disrupting communications w/ Australia (a victory in itself) or it represents you as Allied king of SwPac (MacArthur) or SoPac (Ghormley) being canned for losing an av base. Ghormley was certainly fired for far less.

Gamewise it prevents an Allied player from forward deploying to PM and Lunga instead of making Australia safe from invasion which was the reason for some of the Aussie divisions being withrdrawn from North Africa and why the US infantry divisions were sent and securing the New Hebrides as a jump off point. I disagree w/ forcing an Allied player to respect those historical limitations and allowing the IJN/IJA to play without them by being able to invade Australia. It was highly doubtful the IJA would have ever allowed a raid in Austrailia much less an invasion, but for game purposes they allow the what if. Guess that's what house rules are for.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

... It was highly doubtful the IJA would have ever allowed a raid in Austrailia much less an invasion, but for game purposes they allow the what if. Guess that's what house rules are for.

Historically, didn't the IJN raid Port Darwin?

[Kingfisher]

Yes, once by air, IIRC.

Edit: I believe they also launched a midget sub attack in Sydney harbor as well.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

... It was highly doubtful the IJA would have ever allowed a raid in Austrailia much less an invasion, but for game purposes they allow the what if. Guess that's what house rules are for.

Historically, didn't the IJN raid Port Darwin?

Sorry, was unclear. Was referring to a raid by land forces.

[borner]

OK, back to the thread topic....
 
 
Best "old" BB class - post refits - in no order yet
 
GB Warspite class
US Colorado class
Japan - Nagato class
Italy and France if you want to throw them in to fight over 4th place.
 
 
 

[HansBolter]

sorry Brian, we have thoroughly highacked your thread.

I am not very knowledgable about the War Plan Orange period (ie..pre WWII ships), but I do have a fascinating book my brother brought back from a visit to Pearl Harbor. It's an Arizona Memorial guidebook. In it there are plenty of depictions of the Arizona in it's pre-Pearl Harbor raid days. One photo caption mentions that it was the most powerful battleship and the pride of the fleet when it was launched.

The book also has an unbelievable photo of the effort to right the capsized Oklahoma(?). They poured twenty some odd huge concrete caissons on the shoreline to anchor winches to crank the ship back over onto its keel. After the huge effort to right the ship, it was being towed back to the west coast when it foundered in a storm and sunk.

[bigbaba]

ah, the good old warspite. maybe the battleship wit the longest operation history in WW2. from narvik over matapan, sicily, palermo, to the normandie.

maybe not the best BB, but more succesfull then most of its more modern rivals.

[HansBolter]

didn't the Warspite also narrowly survive a heavier pasting than most ships ever received when she found herself on the receiving end of several Fritz-X guided bombs?

[Kingfisher]

She was present when her sister Valiant copped a Fritz off Salerno. I'm not sure if she herself was also a target, though.

Edit: It appears I have it the other way around:
HMS Warspite

HMS Valiant

[tocaff]

The old USN BBs were tough gals, especially after their refits.  Their biggest drawback, of course, was the lack of speed but they had lots of protection and guns.  IMHO more 14" guns were better than fewer 15" on the RN BBs.

Nagato was brute for her day, though time passes and we all suffer for it.  [:)]

[bigbaba]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

didn't the Warspite also narrowly survive a heavier pasting than most ships ever received when she found herself on the receiving end of several Fritz-X guided bombs?

true, hans. she was hit by several german guided bombs but managed to reach malta. this bombs were specialy developed anti-ship bombs, very deadly and just one of them was enough to sink a italian battleship after italys surrender. i have great respect for the crew of the HMS warspite because they were able to prevent the sinking of the ship after a hit which would sink some other battleships.

[tocaff]

Damage Control, a factor that is never forgotten by the gamers of UV, WITP and WPO.  It really was a huge factor in WWII in favor of the Allies.

[Kingfisher]

After the Battle Magazine has an issue devoted exclusively to the Norweigian Campaign, and in it there is a photo of Warspite taken during the second battle for Narvik. The German photographer was positioned in the mountains north of the town and took the shot of her rounding the corner and entering Rombiak Fiord, with her batteries trained forward, in pursuit of the remaining German destroyers. I'm thinking it must have been terrifying for the German sailors, who almost out of fuel and ammo, are backed into a corner by this armored behemoth coming up after them.

[tocaff]

A tin can in closed waters facing down a BB!?!  There must've been the smell of fear in the air (amongst other things) that day.

[Kingfisher]

Unfortunately (for the British) she never got a chance to bag any of the German DDs.
By the time the lead British DDs made it to the end of the Fiord they discovered the Germans had scuttled their boats.

[anarchyintheuk]

Warspites. Fighting effectively in two world wars is pretty impressive. Wish they could have saved Warspite.

[borner]

I think I would take 8 16 inch guns over 12 14 inch. Other than that the Colorados were only slightly different than the class before them.

[tocaff]

Those 16s on the old BBs, if memory serves, weren't the same guns on the new "fast" BBs in the USN.