Lorks-a-lordy, my Empire is on fire! GBL vs 1EyedJacks - Nemo's mod

[goodboyladdie]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Carl,
Why are you wasting time using your DM's to mine Los Angeles?? Do you think Mike is going to invade the USA anytime soon?? [;)]

Hi Michael

I just want some mines for ASW purposes at my main rear area bases before I move them closer to the action.

[goodboyladdie]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

GBL,

Designer class CLAAs. I actually used a ship modelling programme to test them out. Now I may be wrong about gun mount weights etc and I couldn't get the programme to account for all the side AAA as anything other than barbette mounts so I'll be the first to admit that the modelling mightn't be perfect but my findings were as follows:

1. Assuming that the side-mounted guns were actually arrayed in 2 major banks along the length of the ship, first bank being barbettes revetted into the side of the ship a la Fuso etc ( but with good clearance for elevation ) and that the second bank were "on the deck" ( aka, a traditional gun mounting ) and assuming that you could replace two forward 8 inch turrets with 3 quadruple 3.9inch each ( which when you look at the footprints of the 8 inch turret vs a double 3.9inch ( since I assumed that the 3.9 inch arrangement would be 2 x 2 in terms of horizontal and vertical spacing and not 4 x 1 ) ) and that the pagoda-like bridge was replace by a sort of barbican arrangement allowing gun revetments then the spacing of guns etc is taken care of.

2. Would it have been the size of a CA? NO!!! You have to look at their durability and realise that at 75 durability these ships are NOT CAs they are, essentially, pocket battleships with nothing but AAA armament. Each costs 2/3rds as much as a front-line IJN BB and they have to be viewed through that prism.

3. So, assuming a 21,000 ton displacement are these ships possible and would they be able to stay afloat and fight? Yes.

4. Would I like to take them into heavy seas ? No but I don't think it would have been too much worse than some of the other ships the Japanese built. I seem to recall one of their DDs actually just breaking apart in heavy seas in the 30s and a lot of their DDs being rebuilt as a result.

5. Are they as top-heavy as you might think? No. Building a 2/3rds BB without main gun armament and all that sort of stuff actually frees up a LOT of weight for other stuff and no matter how many 3.9 inch guns you put on board you find it very difficult to use up all that free weight. Think of them as a 2/3rd scale Mutsu or Nagato without main guns but with AAA festooned into every nook and cranny.


I'm no expert on ship design. I'd know a lot more about tank design. But I took a Nagato class BB, scaled it down, stripped out the main and secondary armament, reduced the armour in some areas and kept it in others and then festooned it with AAA. The programme calculates speed etc etc and also seakeeping and while it wasn't as good as the Nagato the seakeeping wasn't all that bad either. It certainly made me think that the Designer Class COULD have kept afloat and fought if someone had been single-minded and crazy enough to build one.

I think the 15 Durability "Forum" Class CLAAs ( based on an enlarged DD design ) are much more in keeping with what the USN and RN did to build AAA ships. The Forum class CLAAs are basically the Japanese copying the West while the Designer class are really more along the lines of BCLAAs ( Light Battlecruiser Anti-Aircraft ) and were designed after reading Kaigun again and being impressed by the Japanese desire to always build "the biggest and best". This led me to think that if someone proposed building true CLAAs someone else would come along and say "What we need are BCLAAs as these will be bigger, more survivable and more lethal than any 2 or 3 CLAAs."


When push came to shove though the Designer class were a fun "what if". The Japanese cannot build everything I put in their build queue and I just assumed that if players didn't like them they'd stop building them and concentrate on more of the fairly conventional DDs and CLAAs and proper CLs I put in. Each to their own and all that. That's the guiding light behind my mod.... I wanted to put together something which would:
a) be different and fun.
b) be competitive in 1944 and 45
c) could be played a whole lot of different ways
d) REALLY put the focus on the economy and had lots of little traps for Japanese players who looked at all the goodies and thought "Gees, I can do anything." I think a good example of what can happen when the Japanese player over-stretches is currently being demonstrated in the game I took over against Damian. He over-extended and now he's about 1 week away from losing almost all of Burma and a fair bit of Vietnam in July 42.


Question: If you could give me the figures for armour rating for the Hurri I vs Spit version in the game I will look at it and consider changing. It is always possible that I had poor data when making the decision and your data might be different.

Hi Nemo

The quadruple mounts are pure fantasy. Designers were struggling to get a twin DP or AA mount to work efficiently. The quad mounts just could not have been served with ammunition fast enough to be useful. Barbette mounts for AA are also not really feasible. They were out of favour even for secondary armament well before WW2. That much top weight and the ammunition requirements would have made them very dangerous ships. Terminus has done some work and turned out some very feasible enhanced AA designs. El Cid has installed a more balanced uber AA fit on smaller hulls too.

My reference books were all packed away to make room for baby stuff so I can't lay my hands on much. I am however convinced that your figures relate to an early Hurricane I. They had a two bladed wooden propellor, no armour and ran on poorer fuel. By summer 1940 they had three bladed metal constant speed propellors, seat armour and 100 octane petrol. Speed, agility and ceiling were increased as a result. This came as a rude shock to the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain. The MkI was no longer in production in early 42 and most were in the hands of training units.

The Hurricanes that first arrived in the Far East were Mk IIBs. They had the same engine as the IIC and performance was very similar. The more I ponder it, the more I am convinced that you have short-changed the Allies. They only get 26 a month after all...

Throwing the early Spit V into the discussion is a red herring. It was available and should have been sent, but the Air Staff were still labouring under the misconception that Jap planes were inferior. IRL they sent Paul Ritchie to address the constant requests for Spit Vs from commanders in theatre. When he agreed with the pilots and commanders they had to eat their words and send them. All you have done is present the best case scenario, ie what would have happened if somebody sensible had been in charge. I am grateful, but I still think the Allied players deserve the proper Hurricanes...

[Nemo121]

Hmm, the Allies get 31 Spitfires though --- which is more than they actually were getting so I don't see how that's short-changing them?
 
Perhaps an equitable solution would be to just assume that the Hurri II would enter service a bit earlier. With the Spits though the Brits have one of the best early-war fighters. It is unrivalled until the arrival of the P-51X in September 1942 which gives it about 10 months of superiority.
 
 
As to the quadruple AAA mounts. Oh I think with work these sorts of things could be worked out. Quadruple mounts did exist albeit not for guns as large as the 3.9inch. As to barbettes not being the best - agreed. On the other hand I wasn't talking about barbette mounts, just using that as an example for the arrangement not being just on the one level.
 
So, what do you think about Hurri IIs just coming in a few months early? That seems to sit well with the concept behind the mod in terms of the Allies raising their game and upgrading plane types in response to the Japanese plane improvements.

[goodboyladdie]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Hmm, the Allies get 31 Spitfires though --- which is more than they actually were getting so I don't see how that's short-changing them?

Perhaps an equitable solution would be to just assume that the Hurri II would enter service a bit earlier. With the Spits though the Brits have one of the best early-war fighters. It is unrivalled until the arrival of the P-51X in September 1942 which gives it about 10 months of superiority.


As to the quadruple AAA mounts. Oh I think with work these sorts of things could be worked out. Quadruple mounts did exist albeit not for guns as large as the 3.9inch. As to barbettes not being the best - agreed. On the other hand I wasn't talking about barbette mounts, just using that as an example for the arrangement not being just on the one level.

So, what do you think about Hurri IIs just coming in a few months early? That seems to sit well with the concept behind the mod in terms of the Allies raising their game and upgrading plane types in response to the Japanese plane improvements.

Hi Nemo

Thanks very much for looking in. It is very much appreciated.

The Japs did not have time to sort out such an issue as quad mounts and the ship is still top heavy. The size you put forward would also be an issue for a strapped economy, but as you point out, building these is an option.

With regard to arrival time for the Hurri IIB, Jan 42 is actually historical. Even if you keep the Hurri I, the figures are incorrect I believe. The Spit was also available, but did not get sent so early historically due to precedence being given to other theatres and Air Staff incompetence. The low availability of pilots and the lack of ability to upgrade very much keeps these in check. I really appreciate the early Mustang and Spit, but they are only in as a balance issue because of Jap improvements. The first Hurricanes being Mk IIs is just historical.

Once again, thanks very much for being so supportive and for all the hard work that went/goes into your wonderful mod.

Cheers

Carl

[Nemo121]

I know this is asking for a lot but do you have any sources for the number of Hurri IIs in India and when they arrived? If you can show "X Hurri IIs arrived in january 42" then I'll totally change their arrival date. Honestly I had thought they oly arrived several months later and that the early Hurricanes were all MG-armed Hurri Is.

The Hurri IIs would change the dynamic there a lot as they are armed with 4 x 20mm cannon IIRC and those things will just SHRED anything the Japanese send their way in 42.
 
 
As to the designer class... Ok, well we can agree to disagree . In any case there are something like 6 of them in-game and only one of them is present on December 7th 1941. If people don't like them then they can just not build them --- I, personally, find them such a drain on resources that I tend to build 1 or 2 out of the possible 5 additional units as they are just too bloody expensive.

The nice little 15 durability CLAAs are bargains though. Terribly fragile but very capable and cheap.

[goodboyladdie]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

I know this is asking for a lot but do you have any sources for the number of Hurri IIs in India and when they arrived? If you can show "X Hurri IIs arrived in january 42" then I'll totally change their arrival date. Honestly I had thought they oly arrived several months later and that the early Hurricanes were all MG-armed Hurri Is.

The Hurri IIs would change the dynamic there a lot as they are armed with 4 x 20mm cannon IIRC and those things will just SHRED anything the Japanese send their way in 42.


As to the designer class... Ok, well we can agree to disagree . In any case there are something like 6 of them in-game and only one of them is present on December 7th 1941. If people don't like them then they can just not build them --- I, personally, find them such a drain on resources that I tend to build 1 or 2 out of the possible 5 additional units as they are just too bloody expensive.

The nice little 15 durability CLAAs are bargains though. Terribly fragile but very capable and cheap.

Hi Nemo.

I'll dig my Bloody Shambles out of the crates in the loft or the garage at some point today. The planes that arrived were the IIB, which had 12 .303 mgs, changed in the field to 8 .303 mgs. The cannon armed IIC did not arrive until later. I believe the squadrons you have arriving with the Hurri I are the correct units, but with the wrong plane. I'll PM numbers once I have had a little chat with Mr Shores....

Thanks again

Carl

[goodboyladdie]

22/01/42

I sent S-18 to mine Jaluit this turn, but after a crash forgot to do it again. It was sent next turn instead. Jaluit is a size 3 port and I have not noticed much happening at the regularly mined port of Kwajalein. The KB's track when it retired suggests that Jaluit could be the destination...

The 3 new subs that arrived this turn (see China screenie) sailed for Manila vias mining trips to Tokyo, Takao and the Pescadores. 7 modern DDs left San Francisco for Pearl Harbor. AVD Mackinac, which arrived last turn, sailed for SF from Seattle. An AK from the South Atlantic started unloading 10,000 tons of supplies at Canton Island.

I have 3 squadrons of P-39s arriving next turn. I do not have many in the pools so I hope they actually arrive with the right plane!

[goodboyladdie]

AK Yuzan Maru hit a mine at Camranh Bay. No hits weres scored in small B-17 raids on Hanoi and Brunei.

Manila, Bataan and Clark were again hit, costing Mike at least 2 Bettys for very little damage. IJA 7th and 16th Divisions were bombed South of Manila. Mike has obviously brought enough troops to do the job.

733 FAA Sqn is retreating from Singapore after getting mauled by Oscars on CAP over Kota Bharu. 2 were shot down with many more damaged.

3 more air units and a Base Force fragment evacuated from Singapore arrived at Madras.

[goodboyladdie]

1 Lt M. Bo became an Ace over Nanchang where 2 Nates and 3 Marys were downed for no loss.

An allied retreat was caused when the Japs South East of Nanchang attacked my blocking force. I just hope I can get all the units to the South to safety as well as preventing the envelopment of my forces in Nanchang.

[goodboyladdie]

23/01/42

The 3 new fighter units arrived with P-39Ds, which was a relief. They flew to San Francisco, where along with other units (see below) they transferred to SWPAC and embarked on a convoy to Brisbane. The units consist of 1 A-24 squadron, 2 of B-26As (1 with bombs, 1 with torpedoes), 1 of B-25s and 4 with the P-39. At Seattle a Soviet AK started to load supplies for Petropavlovsk.

At PH, the 4 DMs sailed to mine Palmyra Island.

HMAS Adelaide found no ships at Tarawa, so will return to bombard.

AKs at Darwin started to move more elements of Asiatic Fleet HQ to Townsville, taking the damaged Dutch ML Bangkalen with them. DD Peary completed upgrade and repair at Perth and sailed to join the other upgraded ASW 4 stackers that are on their way to Batavia.

[goodboyladdie]

The Japs at Johore Bahru were again bombed toady. Brunei took a further Oil hit and now has 78 centres damaged.

In reply the Japs hit Manila, Bataan and Clark, but it again cost them at least 2 Bettys.

The R class BBs arrived at Batavia. They sailed immediately after taking on fuel to bombard the Japs at Johore Bharu, escorted by Force Z. 3 Insect class gunboats that escaped form Sinagpore arrived at Colombo for repair.

IJA 33rd Div was identified approaching Moulmein from the direction of Rahaeng.

[goodboyladdie]

Zeke ambushes over 48,36 and Nanchang cost me 5 Lancers, 2 SB-2Ms and 2 P-40Es. As you'll see from the Ace list attached, the new Chinese Ace has completely disappeared!? My ambushes have stood down in the hope that Mike will go away...

The Japs captured the now abandoned city of Wenchow.

[goodboyladdie]

24/01/42

SS Pollack sailed from PH to lay eggs at Jaluit. A TK arrived at Midway with 10,000 tons of fuel.

43rd and 46th Engineers transferred to SWPAC and are loading for Australia at San Francisco.

HMAS Adelaide bombarded Tarawa, which does not seem to be garrisoned.

3 damaged RN PTs and 2 damaged Q-Ships disbanded to repair at Perth.

Here is the current state of the Suva garrison.

[goodboyladdie]

Lamon Bay has been occupied by the Japs.

P02 Tohuda of F1 Daitai/3rd Kokuati became the latest Jap Ace.

Hanoi was bombed unsuccessfully, but an Oil centre was hit at Brunei. Unfortunately no new damage was caused. I pushed my luck too far at Johore Bharu and it was a very costly error as there were Zekes on LRCAP. 3 B-339s and 12 Martin 139s were destroyed! ML/KNIL 7e Afdeling was disbanded into ML 3e-VLG-III Groep as a result. The new combined unit has 9 planes and 13 pilots.

Singapore (3 Lilys downed by flak), Manila (1 Betty downed), Bataan and Clark were bombed. The Jap 7th and 16th Divs experienced another couple of nuisance raids South of Manila.

2 Aussie Beauforts were shot down by Zekes over Legaspi, but at Laoag they had more success, hitting AK Tsukikawa Maru twice, leaving her heavily damaged.

Here is the Trincomalee garrison as a fill in. Apologies if it's a repeat - I can't remember which ones I have shown you...





In China I am moving the entire AVG to LRCAP Nanchang tomorrow. A guerrilla unit at 49,36 is now almost wiped out by continuous Jap deliberate attacks. The Chinese at 51,33 retreated after another Jap attack. Mike seems to be investing quite a bit of effort in China. I feel this is wasted effort.

[witpqs]

That 40th Division is looking pretty weak hanging out there...

[goodboyladdie]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

That 40th Division is looking pretty weak hanging out there...

You are not wrong. It was a cheap PP buy because of it and easy to ship despite my current weakness in sealift. It is essentially just a regiment at the moment. I am hopeful that as much supply as I can throw at it will enable it to build up in place. If Mike ever decides on a SOPAC strategy I will be in a lot of trouble, but all my defence is smoke and mirrors at the moment...

[witpqs]

An HQ might speed up the build out, but you're likely as short on them as on everything else.

[goodboyladdie]

25/01/42

AK Demodocus was sunk by 3 torpedoes from I-171 near the Eastern map edge (see screenie). The 3rd element of 116th USN Base Force, bound for Nandi was destroyed. The same sub carried out an abortive attack here on the 17th. I have a damaged BB and some TKs due through that hex, so I am hoping it has run out of torpedoes. 2 4 stackers have detached from the escort of the nearby 111th Rgt convoy, bound for Palmyra, to attack the sub in question (hopefully).

USN 71st Base Force has switched to Pac Flt and is loading for Midway. If Mike comes raiding again, Midway is a likely target, so the extra AA will help.

20,000 tons of fuel from CONUS arrived at Brisbane. USS John D Ford became the last 4 stacker to take a 1/42 ASW upgrade at Sydney.

[goodboyladdie]

Calcutta expanded it's airfields to size 5.

Hanoi suffered an HI hit (only one centre damaged) while Brunei took another oil hit (80 centres now damaged). Manila (at least 1 Betty downed), Bataan (at least 1 Betty downed) and Clark were all hit by the Japs, as was Singapore. A new target hit today was Port Blair. Singapore will probably not hold out for too long and Mike seems to have a lot of units in Burma, so I am guessing he has long term ambitions towards India.

AK Yuzan Maru was sunk by 2 torpedoes from a Dutch sub at Taan.

The Asiatic Fleet Naval HQ has now been completely evacuated from Manila by a combination of sub and PBY. The PBYs at Kendari will now get to work on the 8th Pp Base Force.

The bombardment force heading for Johore Bharu seems to have stalled (I really hope this is fixed in AE!). I have changed the home port of the force to Palemang to see if it moves next turn (see screenie). 135, 136 and 17 Sqns are unloading their Hurricane Is at Bombay. I haven't had time to dig out my Bloody Shambles to get Nemo the numbers he asked for yet. 2 Vildebeest squadrons have flown back into Rangoon to bomb Jap forces at Ye. The Q-ship Botlea has disbanded at Colombo to repair the damage suffered at Singapore.

[goodboyladdie]

9 Nates and a P-40B fell in a fierce battle over Nanchang.

A Jap deliberate attack finally wiped out the Chinese guerilla unit at 49,36. ROC 36th Division was transferred to SEAC and is heading along the Burma Road to Schwebo (North of Mandalay). I will see if I can free up a larger Field Army for use in Burma as Mike seems to be leaning that way...

Here is the current Colombo garrison...