(game started) World War III - East vs West: Game III

[RufusTFirefly]

Hi to all,
 
hope you have fun playing this game.
 
I have no fun at all. It is the most boring and disappointing game I ever did!!!
 
Why the hell should anyone play China? There is USSR in the north and in the south (Thailand). In the west Burma can be attacked. But the mountain area cost so much action points that it is impossible to launch an attack when the units has been moved, although it was moved only one hex. The Burmese partisans are too weak to attack an US unit of 1 infantry although they are 19 inf (readiness is too low); great!
 
In Afganistan the taliban are defending so no area can be won.
 
In Korea there are so strong US units that it is impossible to be successful. I have brought a lot of units to North Korea, attacked from two hexes, but I lost anyway
 
So, no matter where I move, I can get no further. My attacks are all to weak even in case the amount of enemy units is smaller. USSR is nearly everywhere around. Why does Thailand belong to USSR? This makes it hardly impossible to move anyway.
 
I will not leave the game, dont worry. But I stay only for not to spoil the game, fun is anywhere els, but not in this game.
 
I would suggest to do some major changes in this game concerning the Asian theatre. I have made up my mind not to participate in WW3 as China agian. Thanks, I am done!
 
(Sorry, guys, it is not your fault. Hope you know that I dont want to blame anyone of you.)

[GrumpyMel]

Rufus,
 
First of all....sorry that you are not having fun.
 
I've actualy played this scenerio solo a couple of times... to get a feel for it.... and I believe the PDRC is a VERY viable power. It's a little slow getting started out of the gate.... but it's got alot going for it.
 
I don't think I'm mistating it when I say in the first test game we played China (Grymme) is pretty much mopping the floor with the US player.
 
 
Some observations if I may... and please don't take this the wrong way. I actualy intend this to try and help you have a more enjoyable experience... even though it will make my road a little tougher.
 
I believe you've done a few things that have severely handicapped you as the PDRC.
 
1) You've pretty much thrown away your air power. Although China starts with a tech disadvantage in the air....they have a pretty decent sized air-force and certainly can at least contest the asian air space with the USA....and can even achieve dominance if lucky. However, you are using your air in penny packets.... 2 or 3 fighters and 2 or 3 bombers in a group....and only one group assigned to a single mission. This is a pretty sure way to loose your airforce unless you have total air dominance.
 
For example, say that you have 12 fighters and I have 12 fighters.... but you send those fighters at me in groups of 3, one group at a time... they are going to get totaly shot up...because I have 4 to 1 odds in each of those fights. This is pretty much what you are doing with your air.
 
Even where there are no intercptors... if the enemy has flak guns....and you send your air attacks in small groups rather then bunched....you are giving the enemy flak alot more opportunities to shot down or surpress your planes.
 
Part of the reasons you are not doing so well is that your air-force isn't really being very effective in supporting your ground operations in key areas (like Korea).... conversely you are not doing much to contest my air-force from knocking out your assault troops.
 
2) Your ground operations are also hindered by the fact that you are not taking advantage of concentric attacks. The attack you made against Seoul on turn 5 is a perfect example. You sent alot of good troops in...but they got absolutely massacered... why? There was an unoccupied mountain hex next to Seoul that you could have moved into to attack from 3 sides(even if it meant a turns delay)... but instead you attacked only from 2 sides. The difference between an attack from 3 sides and 2 is huge....not only can you jam about 50% (I believe) more troops into such an attack...but the difference in the attack bonus is more then double as well. It's not such a big deal when the enemy is in relatively indefensible terrain or you have huge odds against them...but when attacking a well prepaired defense...a concentric attack is almost a requirement. Had you hit Seuol from 3 sides that turn instead of 2 (especialy if you were able to soften it up with air, artillery or shore bombardmemt) you had a decent shot at taking it...rather then getting slaughtered.
 
3) Burma can be a bit of a slog. PDRC really needs to bring thier engineers along there to build a road through the pass and speed up movement... but you can do well there.... use Partisans and purely foot mobile troops to occupy the high mountains on either side of the pass...to open up concentric attack.... make use of air and artillery to soften up the enemy....and don't forget your para's and using air transports from your HQ's to do air supply missions. You actualy aren't doing bad in Burma.
 
4) Given it's position... the PDRC really needs to be quite a bit of a naval power as well. It's got pretty decent starting naval forces as well. Although the US has a larger and more able Navy it is far more spread out...and has more areas it needs to commit to... China actualy can get a local naval advantage against the US early on. However, you really haven't done much with your navy so far.... you've left it out in penny packets (especialy the subs) for the US 7th Fleet to take on and destroy piecemeal before running back to the safety of a protected harbor. Note that even though you have far more naval assets in the area...I've won every naval engagement so far....because I've faught each one on MY TERMS. I find a small group of your ships, close to where my port is....I run out, hit them once....then run back to the safety of port before you can retaliate. You keep letting me do this, I am going to wither away your Navy.
 
Leaving your navy out to sea can be very risky. If you do it...you want to make sure you stack them in big enough groups that it is risky for the enemy to attack...and when they do, they'll use up all thier action points...so they can't just run away to safety after the fight.
 
Also, you've given me no reason to force an engagement with you. Naval shore bombardment from capital ships can be devastating....you haven't done any. Ships and sub's can interdict supplies, production and troop transfers. I've been pretty free in my ability to move stuff around without much hinderance.
 
 
Anyway, I'm NOT trying to be overly critical. Sorry, if my post comes off that way....but I think if you try to employ some of these tactics with the PDRC... you'll see they are alot more competitive power.
 
 
 
 
 

[Grymme]

Hi Rufus. I guess i have to take a little responsibility for PDRC (Chinas) position since i designed the scenario.

I am not sure if your criticism is mainly that there isnt much to do for China or that their possition is to difficult to play from. So ill try to adress both issues.

If you are a player who enjoys large land fronts and land battles then i can fully understand why you are not having to good a time. China in WWIII pretty much plays the role of Japan in WWII with large air & naval battles, some islandhopping and not much land battles. I should say that you are only on turn 5 in the game and from that turn and on there is the possibility for the China or the US to open up the Pakistani/India conflict. This does make for much more land action and also helps opens up a second front in Afghanistan.

As for some more specific issues.

- South Korea contains 3 US units from the start & they have 2 turns to strenghten their position before China can attack. It is also within reach of naval & air interdiction. I think that just by placing some fighters in intercept/ASW mode close to Seul you will be able to do some damage to their reinforcement. So i do not think that South Korea is to dificult to take.

- Its Vietnamn that is USSR controlled. Thailand is US controlled and can be attacked by China after Burma is captured. This is because of historical issues. China & Vietnam pretty much hated eachother during the cold war (after the vietnam war) & Vietnam was much closer affiliatet with USSR.

- As for Burma. Yes the terrain is difficult. But the US position is almost unholdable and Burma should fall within 5 turns of attacking. Which it looks like its doing in the game also. Partisans role is mostly to cut supplylines & open up roads, possibly to take undefended cities. They are not ment to be able to attack regular units very well. Sorry if you havent been able to kill even 1 inf though (i guess they might be a little weak

- The chinese/afghan border mirrors reality & looks very uninviting. i agree.

___________________

I should say that i have made some changes to the scenario since we started the game. Not major ones, but still. Among other things i reduced all starting powers research to 1. This reduced US & NATO airresearch, USSR air & artillery and China sub research. I think it makes for a more balanced airgame.
_____________________

I think that a standard strategy for China in a WWIII game goes something like this.
- Try to stop reinforcements to South Korea with navy & aircraft.
- Imediatly build some 30-40 carrier air to use for striking against any US naval force that gets to close.
- Build up on China/North Korean border and attack directly on turn 3.
- Build up on Burmese border with paratroops among other things. Also get your engineers here & reinforce them. Attack Burma & cut of Burmese supply as soon as possible.
- After Burma is captured start the long walk towards Singapore.
- Bomb Taiwan with long range artillery & after fall of south Korea also with air & naval assets. Then invade. The US should not be able to stop this.

- Production should initialy be focused on fighters, carrier air, ships & engineers. Possibly flak as well. the ground forces you have should be plenty for what you have to do.

In the first test game China has captured South Korea, Burma, Singapore, Borneo, Jakarta, Brunei (6 production cities) and have landed in full force in Australia & is fighting its way towards Sydney. They are also standing outside Kabul and tried to assault it once (not very successfully though). So it can be done.

[GrumpyMel]

Actualy, I didn't even reinforce South Korea. I just established an HQ there, transfered in a handfull of staff.... and directed Seuol's production to that HQ (Mostly supplies and a handfull of infantry/MG's each turn). I pretty much figured he'd interdict anything coming/going to Seoul.
 
What's holding South Korea right now are essenrialy my starting ground forces. I'm going to start posting an AAR in a couple of turns. However, essentialy what happaned there was PDRC failed to challange for local air superiority and I was flying heavy CAP over that air-space... thus not much success in pre-invasion softening up (no bombardments from his fleets either).
 
Then on turn 3 he didn't cross the DMZ but tried a (I believe) 2 hex-side attack against the ROK infantry dug-in in the hills north of Seuol (probably suffered a pretty significant over-stacking penalty), with minimal softening up. When this attack failed to dislodge the ROK's, it left his forces with 0 action points sitting in open terrain in range of my strike aircraft. Naturaly on my turn I launched a concentrated strike... he didn't fly any intercept...so his ground troops took it in the teeth.
 
Next turn, he got a better attack on the weakened ROK's in the mountain (alot more softening up with Art, if I remember) ... he moved in, adjacent to Seoul but didn't attack.... still left alot of his ground forces (especialy tanks & artillery) sitting in open terrain in front of Seoul. He brought in some flak this time to try to protect them, but not enough and still no intercepters. Naturaly, I repeated my air-strike again.
 
Turn 5 he attacked Seuol with a large force, but only from 2 hex-sides (there was an occupied hill hex next to Seuol that he could have taken to give him a 3 sided attack)....probably suffered a large overstacking penalty again...this attack got creamed...miniml losses for the ROK garrison....heavy losses for attackers.... on my turn...once again alot of heavy equipment bunched up in the open for my ground attack craft...some flak, but again no interceptors. I had good luck on that strike, I have to say. So at this point, his ground forces have suffered significant attrition... and I'm still holding on to Seoul.
 
 

[RufusTFirefly]

Hello guys,

thanks for reply and especially for advice. Seems I have to learn much better how to play AT.

GrumpyMel is right in his description of what I can do better. Have to learn especially how to use air and naval forces better than I did. I am still too much doing like in Panzer General series, where it makes sense to attack with a small air group first to let enemy fighters intercept and then attack a second time with no more interception possible. Same with naval forces that can not move, attack, and move back to harbour in one turn in games of PG series.

I am better in handling ground forces. Thats why the situation is not that bad in Burma. Have dropped parachuters, brought units without tracks to the border and send engineers to the mountains (they have not yet arrived but are already quite close to the border and can soon begin building roads).

What I was mostly frustated about was the missing possibilities to move due to large areas around belonging to USSR and other areas blocked by enemy forces. The situation is different in WW3 game 2 where I am leading NATO. Widell has pushed my close to the edge but it is not frustrating because I have a lot of possibilities to move and attack. So, it is quite different. Doing China I feel like a mouse in a trap, not able to move around a lot although I try to get my more space around.

So I see that I should wait til my forces are strong enough to attack and do better preparation by air and naval bombardment first. Ok, I will try, lets see how it works.

[Widell]

Well, I think one learning from this discussion is that the scenario description should maybe outline some of what each side can expect to help players pick a side that fits with the type of game they want to play. Obviously, PDRC is very different from the WP which is different from NATO which is different from the US. This is also a scenario which is very frustrating at times as the tech level makes it possible to strike your opponent in unexpected ways with long distance special forces paradropping, stealth bombers etc, so you need to be ready for that as well compared to a WWII scenario where the tech's are limiting your moves a whole lot more.

[Grymme]

Widell: I think thats a good idea. Although it would make for a very lenghty scenariodescription. You wouldnt feel like writing up a short description for each power?
 
Rufus: You should not feel to bad for being beaten up by Grumpymel. He tortured and killed me of in a couple of games. Also i promise you that you will get much more land action once someone (you or Grumpy) plays the Indo-pakistaniwarcard. I think the PDRC is a difficult power to play though. And i can symphatize with your mouse in a trap feeling. NATO is much more straightforward to play. USA is probably the easiest nation to play in the game, and pretty much cant loose its ground territory.
 
Another tip is to buy fighter II technology if you havent spent yout initial PPs.

[Widell]

ORIGINAL: Grymme
You wouldnt feel like writing up a short description for each power?

Maybe we can collaborate a little around this. I think you more or less nailed the PDRC "disclaimer" in a previous post, and I can most likely throw out a few sentences on what style of play the WP can expect. Maybe someone that tried out NATO and the US can do the same?

[RufusTFirefly]

China turn 7 done.
 
Took the advice and did combined attack from three sides on US forces at Seoul after artillery bombardment from land and sea. Captured the city. It is completely damaged (supply production = 0).
Minor success in Burma.
Stratetic bombing on Taiwan.
Still doing some secret negotiations with Pakistan, but they are not yet at war.
 
 

[Grymme]

Nice that you got some momentum Rufus. Although i am on the other side.

As for the Pakistani/India thing. I do have some advice if you are interested. Do not forget that the US can start the war by themselves after turn 8.

The key is that India has 8k production & is slightly more powerfull than Pakistan. Pakistan has 6k production and no hinterland to fall back on. The counter to this has to be pressure from china.

So china has to act fast. This has a 2 fold purpose. To prevent Indian armies from killing off Pakistan and to be able to force through the mountains and down to the plains before any significant US reinforcements reaches India. If China can push through the mountains and build a road through i think that it will be fifficult for US to put up a longtime defence. Dont worry about killing off every single Indian unit. You can bypass them & cut them off instead if you have enough groundforces.

Another thing to consider is the possibility to post some naval air or ships in Pakistan that can try to intercept US reinforcements. If you are able to capture an indian harbour early it is even better, but it could be tough. Expect the US to be prepared and starting to push reinforcements through from day 1.
  

[RufusTFirefly]

Thanks for advice.
 
I have not yet played the India card because my Chinese units are not yet ready to cross the border to India and attack. But I will keep an eye on it.

[GrumpyMel]

USA Turn 7 Done and sent on to NATO.
 
 
Some highlights:
 
- Successfully iniated Operation Phalanx with US Rangers landing in Albania.
 
- After loss of Seuol evacuated remnants of ROK defense forces to Japan.
 
- Major air battle over the Sea of Japan. US looses 2 Fighters and a Tactical Bomber. PDRC looses 2 Fighters, 5 Naval Air and 1 Yuan Submarine.
 
 
 

[Grymme]

NATO turn 8 sent to USSR
 
- Disaster in the polar circle. USSR breakthrough. Only scraps remain of the NATO polar ground forces. Reinforcements starting to poor in.
 
- In the german front there is a ground breakthrough. Outside of Vienna a strong USSR infantry corps is surrounded by NATO forces.
 
- Strategic bombing of windhoek continues.
 

[RufusTFirefly]

China turn 8 done and send.
 
Some air fights over Taiwan, China losses are much higher than US losses. Slow advance in Burma. India-Pakistan-conflict not yet started.

[GrumpyMel]

USA Turn 8 Done and sent.
 
 - Addis Abeba captured
 
 - Indian intelligence discovers Pakistans secret negotiations with China and India launches a pre-emptive strike against Pakistan, petitions US for assistance.
 
- Lahore captured by Indian forces and the road between Islamabad and Karashi is cut.
 
- Naval and air engagement in the Gulf of Korea heavly damages one PDRC sub pack.
 
- Some US strategic bombers get lost doing a recon mission in the Indian Ocean. 3 are downed by a PDRC air patrol.
 
 

[Grymme]

NATO turn 9 sent.
 
Highlights.
 
Heavy losses on both sides. Some 130 INF on NATO side 340 on USSR side.
 
- Third NATO assault on Romanian oilfields fail. Casualties heavy on both sides, although heavier on the USSR side.
- USSR advance in northern Norway continues. NATO forces retreat slowly. US called for assistance or Norway will be difficult to hold.
- Entire USSR N Balkan district surrounded around Prague by 2nd Bundeswehr and parts of French army group. Will they be able to hold or will the pocket be squashed.
- Engineers create a bridghead towards Berlin and an armoured corps cross the river.
- Strategic bombing of Windhoek continues
- A huge NATO airstrike against USSR GDR HQ knocks out around 120 staff.
- Intelligence reveals two huge USSR aircorps with around 35 airregiments each.
-Strategic bombardment of USSR takes a pause as NATO generals forget to order them out. Ooops.
 
 

[RufusTFirefly]

China turn 9 done and send.
 
The Indien forces that attacked Pakistan were beaten and forced to retreat. Pakistan units entered the southern regions of India without any defence from the Indien army.
 
Chinese units have taken Mandaley in Burma and prepare to fight back the Indien units moving eastwards. The US infantry units in Bankok survived two attacks of Chinese paratroopers. This was a bad surprise for victory seemed to be an esay doing there.
 
Once again the Chinese air force suffered heavy losses when trying to bomb Taiwan. US air power is overwhelming in the area around Japan.

[GrumpyMel]

Tried to get the turn done last night, but we lost power before I could finnish. Will try to get the turn completed tonight and send it along.
 
 
Chris - USA

[GrumpyMel]

USA Turn 9 complete and sent to NATO.
 
Air strikes against Pakistan and PDRC forces in Korea. Not much ground activity this turn however.
 
 

[RufusTFirefly]

China turn 10 done and send.
 
Again some losses of Chinese air units over the Korean Sea. 64 Chinese paratroopers attacked 8 US infantry in Bangkok, and failed! [X(]
 
Slow advance in Burma.
 
Pakistan army fights successful against Indien units and move deeper into India.