Managing Japan Industry in RHSRAO

[herwin]

I'm hitting October 1942 in RHSRAO, and it's clear I need to micromanage Japanese industry. I'm short about 2000 HI, and it's being sucked out of aviation. I had ignored this aspect, assuming autopilot would be a good nominal setting, but it appears to be a bad decision. What's the general experience here?

[n01487477]

Isn't it like asking how many Angels could fit on the tip of a pinhead ?

I'm trying unsuccessfully to be funny here ... but come on... the details.

I can run you through as could many others what you should do, but without specifics ...
Well ...
1. What do you not need right now ? Armament / Armour / Ship Building
2. Reduce those until you are getting surplus.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Isn't it like asking how many Angels could fit on the tip of a pinhead ?

I'm trying unsuccessfully to be funny here ... but come on... the details.

I can run you through as could many others what you should do, but without specifics ...
Well ...
1. What do you not need right now ? Armament / Armour / Ship Building
2. Reduce those until you are getting surplus.

I've cut back now on merchant shipbuilding. Does the game allow the scenario designer to turn off production? It would be nice if the game engine produced 'nice' default behaviour.

[n01487477]

I believe you can turn off production in the scenario editor ...

As I'm not a mod designer I'm not sure if there are other implications ... but as a Japanese player, I think this is one aspect that makes me never play for the Allies ... I enjoy the tinkering with & managing everything aspect of the game

[el cid again]

One could turn Japanese production off - using the scenario editor before starting a game.

This is not consistent with RHS design intent and it will tend to make Japan far too strong.

Worse - it gets rid of the strategic point of the war.

That is - can Japan set up - and then defend - a functional autarky? [A local economy]

If you don't need to ship in oil and resources - make HI points, supplies and fuel from them - and move supplies and fuel to points where they are needed - what is the war about?

RHS is about the strategic situation as it was - and further - as it might have been. You are supposed to decide what to produce from all the possibilities - and if you just get everything for free - you will get a lot more than Japan could produce even with no enemy. If the enemy cuts you off from vital things - it won't stop you either. Even if the enemy destroys your industry - it won't stop you. So - again - what is the point of the war - sans this stuff?

[el cid again]

As for how to do it -

the first thing is to understand you cannot do everything - and so you do what you need most.

And merchant ships are the secret. Your strategy is backwards - JF Dunnigan - designer of the original WITP (mechanical) said an unpopular but effective strategy for optimizing Japan's power is to build as many merchant ships as possible. I always am building more merchant shipyards - and turning them all on - rather than ever shutting them down. If you don't turn off ships production (halted) - you will find your merchant ships "stack up" and don't advance toward entering the game. They do this in class slot order - ships with a higher class slot produce later - and when you run out of points - they just don't get any advancement on the time track.

Next - try to understand how the game works. Each place is different - and what you want to do at a place may be different. If you are not going to need ship repair points at this port, turn off repair shipyards. Monitor naval shipyards pool - if high - turn on some warships - if low - turn off some. Looks like we have a situation in which there are potentially too many naval shipyards and never enough merchant shipyards (which is right). Repair yards matter more as the war goes on. But you can safely turn off some naval yards - particularly if you also turn off things like Shinano (in any form - this is a very expensive ship - worth a lot of smaller ships - as indeed is the case - IRL Shinano was suspended when the war began - restarted later - and then accelerated - a horrible waste of resources).*

Next - try to understand how to "force" production. You need over 10,000 supply points at a location to get facilities to build there. You can attract supplies with things like HQ. You can also turn off things or move things that eat supplies. And you can dump supply points in by ship (if it is a port location) or even by air transport. In this way you may be able to build up facities that won't build if you just let AI manage everything.

In the end - some players do very well with production. The more work you do every day of game time - the more rewards you will be paid in production terms. It is not every person's cup of tea. But it IS the point of WITP. And the Allies should always play to hurt Japanese production as much as their military forces.


* An earlier ship - Musashi - was seen by Yamamoto as a terrible mistake. Already it was somewhat clear that air power was going to matter - and so he said "There are three great follies in history. The Pyramids of Egypt. The Great Wall of China. And the battleship Musashi." Well - if Musashi should not have been built (she is worth 150 escorts or 1500 really good tanks in terms of steel) - imagine how dumb it is to pour all those resources into a still later ship that won't be around for most of the war (and won't appear at all in most WITP games).

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

One could turn Japanese production off - using the scenario editor before starting a game.

This is not consistent with RHS design intent and it will tend to make Japan far too strong.

Worse - it gets rid of the strategic point of the war.

That is - can Japan set up - and then defend - a functional autarky? [A local economy]

If you don't need to ship in oil and resources - make HI points, supplies and fuel from them - and move supplies and fuel to points where they are needed - what is the war about?

RHS is about the strategic situation as it was - and further - as it might have been. You are supposed to decide what to produce from all the possibilities - and if you just get everything for free - you will get a lot more than Japan could produce even with no enemy. If the enemy cuts you off from vital things - it won't stop you either. Even if the enemy destroys your industry - it won't stop you. So - again - what is the point of the war - sans this stuff?

Not the issue. I'd just like to have the default settings produce something in line with the available HI. I've cut the merchant ship construction in half, and it balances now.

[el cid again]

OK - but then you don't get the shipping you need later in the war.

If you turn off production using the editor - you would get everything for free as it were.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

As for how to do it -

the first thing is to understand you cannot do everything - and so you do what you need most.

And merchant ships are the secret. Your strategy is backwards - JF Dunnigan - designer of the original WITP (mechanical) said an unpopular but effective strategy for optimizing Japan's power is to build as many merchant ships as possible. I always am building more merchant shipyards - and turning them all on - rather than ever shutting them down. If you don't turn off ships production (halted) - you will find your merchant ships "stack up" and don't advance toward entering the game. They do this in class slot order - ships with a higher class slot produce later - and when you run out of points - they just don't get any advancement on the time track.

Next - try to understand how the game works. Each place is different - and what you want to do at a place may be different. If you are not going to need ship repair points at this port, turn off repair shipyards. Monitor naval shipyards pool - if high - turn on some warships - if low - turn off some. Looks like we have a situation in which there are potentially too many naval shipyards and never enough merchant shipyards (which is right). Repair yards matter more as the war goes on. But you can safely turn off some naval yards - particularly if you also turn off things like Shinano (in any form - this is a very expensive ship - worth a lot of smaller ships - as indeed is the case - IRL Shinano was suspended when the war began - restarted later - and then accelerated - a horrible waste of resources).*

Next - try to understand how to "force" production. You need over 10,000 supply points at a location to get facilities to build there. You can attract supplies with things like HQ. You can also turn off things or move things that eat supplies. And you can dump supply points in by ship (if it is a port location) or even by air transport. In this way you may be able to build up facities that won't build if you just let AI manage everything.

In the end - some players do very well with production. The more work you do every day of game time - the more rewards you will be paid in production terms. It is not every person's cup of tea. But it IS the point of WITP. And the Allies should always play to hurt Japanese production as much as their military forces.


* An earlier ship - Musashi - was seen by Yamamoto as a terrible mistake. Already it was somewhat clear that air power was going to matter - and so he said "There are three great follies in history. The Pyramids of Egypt. The Great Wall of China. And the battleship Musashi." Well - if Musashi should not have been built (she is worth 150 escorts or 1500 really good tanks in terms of steel) - imagine how dumb it is to pour all those resources into a still later ship that won't be around for most of the war (and won't appear at all in most WITP games).

The bottlenecks are currently supply and HI. The primary shortage is aircraft engines. I'm building up the engine production, shutting off aircraft production that isn't needed, and cutting back on merchant construction. I've also shut down the Shinano and RO production. I'll check the other areas, particularly armaments and repair yards. I have enough shipping for oil and resources.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

OK - but then you don't get the shipping you need later in the war.

If you turn off production using the editor - you would get everything for free as it were.

Right now I'm not getting the aircraft I need now.

[el cid again]

RHS has an expanded economic model over CHS - which itself is expanded over stock. Some commentators argue that aircraft production is vastly too great. Partly - they are misunderstanding what the numbers mean: production of 1000 planes per month listed in a report does not mean you get 1000 planes - it means theoretical capacity is 1000 planes and AI NEVER gives you CLOSE to all of them. As you point out - engine limits is one reason. Also HI limits. Both are right - and in the game because of a crude effort at design to get it right. Still - you probably get more planes than historically.

One of my tricks is to NOT produce inefficient two engine aircraft. For example - in game terms - a Ki-48 costs as much as a Ki-21 - so why build any at all? You can have the same number of Ki-21s for the same number of engines - or two fighter planes - either of which is better than one Ki-48. But in a real game you may need a few Ki-48s as replacements until Ki-21 production ramps up enough to take over the Ki-48 units. Still - that is the sort of reasoning I use - what is more efficient? Nemo writes he gets quite phenomenal production rates - he can wholly replace older fighters in a very brief time for example - and he appears to have a very good grasp of efficiency analysis.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

RHS has an expanded economic model over CHS - which itself is expanded over stock. Some commentators argue that aircraft production is vastly too great. Partly - they are misunderstanding what the numbers mean: production of 1000 planes per month listed in a report does not mean you get 1000 planes - it means theoretical capacity is 1000 planes and AI NEVER gives you CLOSE to all of them. As you point out - engine limits is one reason. Also HI limits. Both are right - and in the game because of a crude effort at design to get it right. Still - you probably get more planes than historically.

One of my tricks is to NOT produce inefficient two engine aircraft. For example - in game terms - a Ki-48 costs as much as a Ki-21 - so why build any at all? You can have the same number of Ki-21s for the same number of engines - or two fighter planes - either of which is better than one Ki-48. But in a real game you may need a few Ki-48s as replacements until Ki-21 production ramps up enough to take over the Ki-48 units. Still - that is the sort of reasoning I use - what is more efficient? Nemo writes he gets quite phenomenal production rates - he can wholly replace older fighters in a very brief time for example - and he appears to have a very good grasp of efficiency analysis.

Well, I'm already doing that. Some of those planes aren't worth the HI to build them.