naval SAMs don't shoot

[VictorInThePacific]

I have an old version of Harpoon.

Exactly how old I can't say right now.

My problem is this:

In the GIUK battleset, Duel scenario, my NATO SAG, with over 300 standard missiles available, was attacked by about 20 shipwreck missiles. I had plenty of detectors in use, but the air defence refused to fire! One of my ships was sunk.

Same scenario, different run, my NATO SAG launched 144 harpoons and tomahawks at the Soviet SAG. The Soviets fired all their 200-odd grumbles and assorted other stuff at my missiles. Only about 20 got through, and, having expended all my ordnance, I was only able to sink 2 ships.

So why do I need 144 missiles to get 2 kills, while the computer can get a kill with only 20 missiles?

I have considerably more data about this issue, and other, similar occurrences, which I may post later, but for now I just want to know if someone else has come across this sort of thing.

I also have a pretty good guess as to what is happening, which I will test further, but this appears to be either a bug, or if it is realistic, then the weapons designer needs to be stood against a wall & shot for treason. (Of course, it happens for both sides.)

[hermanhum]

As posted in your other thread, are you certain that you are playing Harpoon3? This sounds a great deal like you are describing a Harpoon Classic scenario. There is a "GIUK Duel" scenario in both Harpoon 3 and one for Harpoon Classic. So, it is unclear which version you are making reference. If your game screen looks anything like the attached image, you are playing Harpoon Classic (and not Harpoon 3 or Harpoon ANW). The Harpoon Classic forum is over at:

tt.asp?forumid=305

This isn't meant to be insulting, but are you certain that your radar was activated on the defending ships?

If you are playing Harpoon Classic, you might also want to check your Game Options to ensure that you have the Optimum setting for SAM fire and that the SAM Rate of fire is Heavy.

All the weapons for the Harpoon ANW version of the Duel scenario have been tested. They may have very short ranges, but they have all been found to fire.

One reason why the Russian SSMs may appear to be more effective is the fact that they are 2-3 times faster than the NATO missiles. This would mean that they can get through any NATO SAM envelope much faster than the NATO SSMs can penetrate the Russian SAM bubble.

[VictorInThePacific]

As posted in your other thread, are you certain that you are playing Harpoon3? This sounds a great deal like you are describing a Harpoon Classic scenario. There is a "GIUK Duel" scenario in both Harpoon 3 and one for Harpoon Classic. So, it is unclear which version you are making reference. If your game screen looks anything like the attached image, you are playing Harpoon Classic (and not Harpoon 3 or Harpoon ANW). The Harpoon Classic forum is over at:

tt.asp?forumid=305

This isn't meant to be insulting, but are you certain that your radar was activated on the defending ships?

If you are playing Harpoon Classic, you might also want to check your Game Options to ensure that you have the Optimum setting for SAM fire and that the SAM Rate of fire is Heavy.

All the weapons for the Harpoon ANW version of the Duel scenario have been tested. They may have very short ranges, but they have all been found to fire.

One reason why the Russian SSMs may appear to be more effective is the fact that they are 2-3 times faster than the NATO missiles. This would mean that they can get through any NATO SAM envelope much faster than the NATO SSMs can penetrate the Russian SAM bubble.

***************

Herman, thank you for your reply.

Yes, I do believe I have Harpoon Classic; actually I am running it on a PowerMac. And thank you for directing me to the proper forum; I will be going over there after this.

Regarding radar on the surface ships, I will have it on or off at various times. Generally what I do, if I have the resources, is to cover the area around my ships with some sort of air and surface radar, typically from aircraft, but the radar from the ships will be off. I use a similar procedure for underwater hostiles. That way I can see what's coming, but my vulnerable units stay hidden (I hope). If missiles are inbound, I turn on the radars from the units with the SAMs. What I don't know is whether the SAMs can immediately fire, or if those radars have to be on for some time first. In any case, I do have solid locks on the incoming missiles, so I, the commander definitely know what's coming and I definitely have told my subordinates to target those missiles. SHOOT THEM DOWN, DAMMIT !!!

What I have noticed, for example while playing the Soviets, is that the NATO missiles appear to be traveling on a ballistic course, because they are not headed directly towards any of my ships. The air defence computer does not appear to consider such missiles a threat, so it doesn't shoot at them. Meanwhile, I, the commander, am screaming SHOOT THEM DOWN, DAMMIT !!! The missiles come closer and closer, 50 miles, 30, 10, 5. At 5 miles, their own homing systems turn on (I can see them change course towards my ships). NOW, when it is too late, my air defence starts shooting.

So this leads me to suspect that if you launch missiles at ships without solid lock-ons, the target's air defence computer may not consider them to be a threat and simply will not shoot until it is too late. This reminds me of something Admiral Galantin describes in "Take Her Deep": the Mk XIV torpedo had a defective firing mechanism, so if you got a solid hit on a target, the torpedo was virtually guaranteed to not explode, so a glancing, off-angle hit was much more likely to actually sink the target. Anyway, I will continue to try to investigate this possibility.

I have used various game options. I have settled on a heavy surface SAM fire rate because I really want those things shot down. I believe what this means is that the air defence will allocate enough SAMs to give a high expected kill probability, typically 2 SAMs per target. I have generally settled on an AAW auto-fire range of 3/4. However, one of the notes in the manual tells me that this does not prevent the computer from shooting at targets as it deems appropriate; all I can do is force it to fire at a LONGER range than it might deem appropriate. That is to say, I can not force my units to NOT fire their ordnance at targets I do NOT want to expend ordnance on. In any case, I believe that this option only applies to aircraft shooting at other aircraft.

As to your next point: "All the weapons for the Harpoon ANW version of the Duel scenario have been tested. They may have very short ranges, but they have all been found to fire.", I guess I am not actually using ANW, but in the Classic game, it's not that the SAMs DON'T shoot. I know that they DO shoot (mostly) when the computer is defending its ships. My problem is that my air defences open up too late to be useful (i.e. I still have 50 Grumbles while a couple of dozen missiles have sunk a bunch of my ships.

Finally, yes, all the NATO standard missiles are traveling at the same speed as most of the Soviet anti-ship missiles. So, for example, if they miss on the first go-around, they cannot turn around and catch their targets, while the harpoons and tomahawks travel much more slowly.

Incidentally, I have heard that there is nothing in the NATO arsenal that can intercept the Sunburn missile. What is your take on this?

Once again, thanks for all your info.

Victor in the Pacific

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: VictorInThePacific

Incidentally, I have heard that there is nothing in the NATO arsenal that can intercept the Sunburn missile. What is your take on this?

I don't know if this is based on reality or not. In the game, Sunburn missiles can be intercepted. However, they are darned fast and they are sea-skimmers. So, you often do not detect them until they are very close to the target (you).

Also, due to their low altitude, you may only get one or two engagements before they are upon you. Missiles travelling in excess of 1650kts can cross the radar horizon (20nm) and strike your ship very quickly before you get more than a few rounds out of the guns or a SAM into the air.