Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waiting...

[Terminus]

No such thing as "normal". All projects are different, but the main reason for the long time (like in WitP/AE) is, like Joel said, the volunteer part-time status of the development team.

[kaybayray]

Just some thoughts from another long time customer of Matrix games as well as a former member of Wild Bill and the Raiders Team.

Long ago back a couple years when I first found this game on the Matrix forums I asked about any projected release or completion date like many of us have on this and other games. The reply I got from Sarge and others was very good IMO. They directed me to some of the more technical posts on what they had or were working on to correct, add or modify with this game. This showed me that they were in fact "working the problem" so to speak.

Well after months of following them I realized that they have a gargantuan task they are working on and it will likely be some time before they really get it completed. So with some help from them and some other regulars on this forum I located and purchased an old copy of the original game and started working away at it. Right away I realized this was no pretzel and beer game. This game requires some significant thought for organizing and planning your strategy and mission doctrine. With that I came to a significant realization that the task to repair, modify, add content to and/or really tune this game up would require at the very least a much more significant focused and cognitive effort of several people working very well together if they were to achieve success. So in the words of a fellow Engineer I worked with way back " what is the appropriate Engineering term for this Revelation?? DUH !! "

So realizing the extreme depth and breadth of this game I have been working on learning how to play it and how to succeed at it, thanks to the help of Sarge, Swift, Harley to name a few with theie very considerate and helpful replys to my newb questions. With the help of other people I have found a treasure trove of historical information that I believe will greatly enhance my game experience with the original version I have and with the Matrix version I will have once completed. So my advice to any who feel frustion or anxiety at the fact that a release date is not set in stone on top of Mount Arrarat is to read through the myrad of posted topics on this forum so you can get a true perspective of what efforts are being made and what challenges these guys are dealing with before you really get upset at them or Matrix.

Some perspective for you all on the "Volenteers" that work on the games distributed by Matrix. Long ago way back in the 90's I was on the Wild Bill and the Raiders team workin on campaigns and scenarios for the Steel Panthers World at War game. All of us working on that were doing that as a "Labor of Love" and were not an employee of Matrix and any affiliate. We were people working in many different professions but sharing the one common bond of an enjoyment of competitive gaming. So much so that we wanted to help other enthusiests get more from these games. So in what little and varied time we could hack out of our regular lives or responsibilty and obligation we strove to build these great games better. This is taking a real "nuts n bolts" approach which is rather rare in these days of glossing over everything. So as much as I join all of you in wanting to see this game released I also understand that it will be some time. So if you really want to check it out, search for one of the original 12 Oclock High, Bombing the Reich games and start digging.

Later,
KayBay

[sauro brusch]

O.K. boys I can say only.. ok is ready when it is ready, but the wait wears out (for me)
[:(]

[Hard Sarge]

not to be smart, but it is not our idea

also wanted to say, that I have said alot in the past, so any more, I am getting to the point that I don't know what I should be saying, so you guys know what is going on

so, if you have questions or what not, ask and then I can explain what and why or how it is working

[Yank]

As computer wargame fans we're lucky anybody is working on re-releasing these titles as (hopefully) much improved products over the original games. If these guys were not doing it I don't know who would. Certainly not the mainstream game development companies. So the reality is we have part-time developers who do this more for the love of it than the money. With a few exceptions like 2by3 games, Paradox, or Norm Koger there's almost nothing new in our area of interest being produced. Even some of the 2by3 work lately has been on the wargaming "lite" side.

People are obviously confusing some of these "fan-based" development efforts with big budget game development projects that have full time professional development staff. My advice for what it's worth, is that it might serve Matrix well to remind people of that in as "official" a way as they can, when one of these types of projects is announced, and a spot created for it on the forum. It might help people put the development timeline (indefinite) in better perspective and cut down on the inquiries.

[Hard Sarge]

for 2 by 3, while I will agree that the world at war, is a little on the "lite" side (but was designed to be that way) but the AWC game is very detailed, and a very nasty AI

and not sure what can be said, but I know at least one of there games coming up is good and detailed and large, and, it has nothing to do with the pacific

[Lützow]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
and not sure what can be said, but I know at least one of there games coming up is good and detailed and large, and, it has nothing to do with the pacific

That would be "Russian Front" but 2by3 didn't post news or dev diaries anymore for ages.

WitP has been the pinnacle of Grigsby's creation and an advancement of what he started with '12 o Clock' and 'Bombing the Reich'. Can't say much about WtBS as I don't own it, but 'World of War' was a huge regress in comparison to his previous titles.

[Hard Sarge]

well, to be honest, WaW was planned to be "lite" from the start, after all the detail work on UV/WitP

[Joel Billings]

Yes, and at risk of going way off topic, we are actively working on our next Russian Front game. I've been so busy testing it I haven't written a dev journal entry in months. Guess it's time I get around to doing that. You'll notice that Matrix tends not to start a public forum anymore for games in development until the game is near completion. That's because of games that have been in development for years after the forum was created. That's good and bad. It makes it less likely that people will get frustrated from the wait for a game long since announced as in development. However it also keeps us developers from discussing what we're doing with the public, and sometimes getting good public feedback. With our games we can often be in testing for a good year or longer before release (WBTS was about 16 months), and sometimes I'd like to have a public forum to discuss things even before I have a release date. That's the tradeoff we and Matrix faces. We've elected to get early alpha testers and set up a forum where the testers can discuss things, but even so, there are times we'd like to go out to the wider world but don't have an easy way to do that.

[Yank]

Didn't mean to denigrate 2by3 in any way, shape, or form with my "lite" comment. I'm a huge Grigsby-Billings fan. WAW not my cup of tea, but it's rare for them to make something I am not interested in.

[Custer1961]

Maybe you could open the development forums to the public for a week or so every so often.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Yes, and at risk of going way off topic, ...

Joel, it's hard to conceive of anything you would say on this forum that I would consider "off topic" [:)]

Just posting something is a message that you are still out there and working [&o]

[Lützow]

Well, 2by3 actively working on 'Russian Front' are good news.

A glimpse about what to expect from this title wouldn't hurt as well, since the dev diary only mentions 'a weekly turn monster game'. Does that mean it will be as detailed as WitP ?

[turska]

Maybe we will get this game around the same time as we get the Duke Nukem Forever.

[Time Traveller]

*ahem* Back on topic. I am still waiting for a reply from the person/persons who are currently actually programming this game (not play testing). A very general time estimate for release of this game would be much appreciated by many who have waited so long, given the situation. Thank you. [:)]

[Hard Sarge]

Talk to me and I have already given you my answer

if that is not good enough for you, I am sorry, but that is all you are going to get

[Joel Billings]

TT, there is no way that this can be answered more given that the programmers working on the game are not full-time employees. Matrix considers the situation to be late beta and considers whether it is ready for publication as a month to month issue (i.e. it could be ready very soon, or it still could take many months depending on how much time the critical people have to work on the game, how long it takes to fix the few remaining issues, and whether any other issues come up as work continues). My guess is that it will take Matrix 1-2 months after they think the last major issues are resolved before the game will go on sale, but that is not an official position (just my best guess based on my experience with publishing games and watching how Matrix operates). If someone could guarantee the programmers could work 40-60 hour weeks on the project, a better estimate could be given, but that's just not the case.

[tanksone]

ORIGINAL: Time Traveller

*ahem* Back on topic. I am still waiting for a reply from the person/persons who are currently actually programming this game (not play testing). A very general time estimate for release of this game would be much appreciated by many who have waited so long, given the situation. Thank you. [:)]

Hi, hmmm gotta be someone on a smurf name from the WitP forum [:D].

[Hard Sarge]

also, on the other side of what Joel is trying to say, is we working with code, sometimes you have to work with the code, change the code or start over with new code, plus it then has to work with what is already there and once it is all done, it got to be tested to see what happens now

(in the old game, if you did something to let the FB's fight, MB's couldn't hit the side of a barn, that was a very odd one, how those linked up, but they did)

well, what I am basicly trying to say, I can't tell you how long it is going to take, based on what we are working on, as I don't know how long it is going to take to get them to work, and tested to see if they work

[Time Traveller]

So I guess the short answer is no one knows if and when this game will be released. That's all I wanted to know. I won't waste any more of my time or yours. Thank you. [;)]