Zoom out on strategic map

[e_barkmann]

actually, I'm finding 'fast' a lot slower than it used to be in previous games... <ducks>

[Andrew Williams]

Time should tick away in real time at Fast setting.

ie 15min battle will take 15minutes&nbsp; any slower setting will take longer.

[jimi3]

Senior Drill,
Thanks for the explanation on zoom in. I had no idea it was that involved. Scratched from the wish list. I’ve been having so much fun I don’t miss it anyways. I agree on the mid level zoom out. I have “lost” a unit more than once on the battlefield. Hope that feature makes it to an update. Love this game !!!
Jim

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: himmelstoss

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

Well giving order in "pause mode" is not really what the CC series is about at all IMHO.

yes i do understand, but we are writing the year 2008 and thus having options in a game to enable certain things or not to, would surely be nice. [;)]

That has nothing to do with the year. This is a feature, not a fault. I#m very sure if Atomic wanted they could have coded that already in CC2. The whole essence of the game is based on fast decission making and not on thinking 5 minutes about your next move [;)]

[dogancan]

ORIGINAL: briny_norman

Would it be possible to add a zoom-out function to the strategic map?
I don't find the default zoom-level good for much - it's much to zoomed in to be of any real use.

Totally agree, a zoomed-out strategic map is needed to really see the 'strategic' situation. Hope we can see it in the next patch...[8|]

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: dogancan

Totally agree, a zoomed-out strategic map is needed to really see the 'strategic' situation. Hope we can see it in the next patch...[8|]

A zoomed-in, tactical map is needed so that I can distinguish one tank from another at 1920x1200 on a 24" monitor. Those darn Stuarts and Greyhounds are awfully small on that sort of display setup.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Stwa]

My takes on some of these subjects;
&nbsp;
Commands during pause: In the old days I would play with 15 minute time limit. Then, by accident, I discovered that playing with no time limit (especially against the AI), seemed much more realistic to me. The AI and the human players can slow things down and initiate attacks in a more controlled manner. You can spread out and cover all the objectives at once on the larger maps. You can hunker down and negate those accurate German morter barrages. You've got time to hide your halftracks in the woods, and then pull them out when you can best use them. And of course, you've got time to issue orders. In fact, you've got time to go to the fridge for a beer. Sometimes I will set force moral on, but other times I wont, so the only way off the map is through a truce.
&nbsp;
Zooming: Since I got a larger montior (32" 1360 x 768), the necessity for zooming is not required. The strat map seems to close, for the most part, because the viewing area is just to small. This could be changed, I suppose, but I have always liked the CC5 strat map. On the battle screen, because of the size of the monitor, the individual soldiers and vehciles look large and finely detailed. Animations and explosions have never looked better. It's like CC was meant for an LCD monitor from the start.
&nbsp;
CC Game: I have never found a military subject game (real-time) that I like better than CC. The final evolution of Atomic's series to CC5 was a real masterpiece (I think). I would not wan't the caretakers of the series, going forward, to add new game features, per se. I would prefer that current features properly de-bugged, refined, and made moddable if possible.

[moose1999]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: dogancan

Totally agree, a zoomed-out strategic map is needed to really see the 'strategic' situation. Hope we can see it in the next patch...[8|]

A zoomed-in, tactical map is needed so that I can distinguish one tank from another at 1920x1200 on a 24" monitor. Those darn Stuarts and Greyhounds are awfully small on that sort of display setup.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

I have a 22' monitor (1680x1080) and what I did was reduce the game resolution a notch or two.
That makes everything more discerneble and still gives you a good view of the battlefield.

[squadleader_id]

ORIGINAL: Stwa

My takes on some of these subjects;

Commands during pause: In the old days I would play with 15 minute time limit. Then, by accident, I discovered that playing with no time limit (especially against the AI), seemed much more realistic to me. The AI and the human players can slow things down and initiate attacks in a more controlled manner. You can spread out and cover all the objectives at once on the larger maps. You can hunker down and negate those accurate German morter barrages. You've got time to hide your halftracks in the woods, and then pull them out when you can best use them. And of course, you've got time to issue orders. In fact, you've got time to go to the fridge for a beer. Sometimes I will set force moral on, but other times I wont, so the only way off the map is through a truce.

Actually setting 15 minute time limit is recommended for playing against the AI.
The AI isn't much of an opponent...so 15 minutes will give you the best challenge.
The best setting is of course attacking, with the AI defending...with just 15 minutes...you need to be fast and decisive (like what Andrew's been demoing...or trying to ...through his video AARs).
Playing as the defender against attacking AI...he will spend 3/4 of the time camping...then make a move in the last 5 minutes or so

[Stwa]

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

ORIGINAL: Stwa

My takes on some of these subjects;

Commands during pause: In the old days I would play with 15 minute time limit. Then, by accident, I discovered that playing with no time limit (especially against the AI), seemed much more realistic to me. The AI and the human players can slow things down and initiate attacks in a more controlled manner. You can spread out and cover all the objectives at once on the larger maps. You can hunker down and negate those accurate German morter barrages. You've got time to hide your halftracks in the woods, and then pull them out when you can best use them. And of course, you've got time to issue orders. In fact, you've got time to go to the fridge for a beer. Sometimes I will set force moral on, but other times I wont, so the only way off the map is through a truce.

Actually setting 15 minute time limit is recommended for playing against the AI.
The AI isn't much of an opponent...so 15 minutes will give you the best challenge.
The best setting is of course attacking, with the AI defending...with just 15 minutes...you need to be fast and decisive (like what Andrew's been demoing...or trying to ...through his video AARs).
Playing as the defender against attacking AI...he will spend 3/4 of the time camping...then make a move in the last 5 minutes or so

What you mention has been basically the standard mantra for a decade or more now. And it's more what people want. A sudden 15 minitue impulse of bullets and death raining from all directions.

But, if you will set the game to no time limit, the AI can't initiate his attacks in the last 5 minutes because there is no time limit.
This method allows you to play as the defender as well as the attacker with about the same results. Here are the advantages the way I see them.

1. You don't know precisely when the AI will attack if ever. Unless you looked, you don't know what teams the AI has. Now, if we could only fix it so you werent sure how many teams the AI had, this would be perfect.

2. You need to arrange for the defense of your ALL your objectives (not counting road exits), since the AI can take his time and prepare more than one axis of advance.

3. The AI is not as stupid as people think, and would prefer to ambush you rather than attack you (duh)! Funny I feel the same way as the AI.

4. Ammo becomes a huge consideration, because there is no time limit. Be careful or your game will take on an Islanwandu look and feel.

5. You will still mainly defeat the AI, but you can reduce the number of your teams, or give the AI another tank, to balance things out.

6. The aggressiveness of the AI will be mainly a function of the aggression rating of the on the spot commander.

7. Also, if you could modify what constitutes a failure in force moral, one could put at end to human player Rambo tactics forever. That being said, attackers should expect greater loss, so in single map games, some adjustment in teams should be expected.

8. In a 15 minute game, you don't care how many doods get wasted, your only trying to capture the objectives, and in a campaign game, you are trying to force the ememy off the map so their entire force will disband. A huge disadvantage for the poor AI.

9. With no time limits imposed, you must control the tempo of the battle, otherwise, their can be ugly consequneces. A 15 minute game has only one tempo (Rambo). In the attached map, I did well controlling the house to house fighting, eventually capturing the town, without using up all my ammo, or getting my people killed. But after the battle, the AI brought another Sherman out (which had been hiding behind a hedge during the entire battle), and it pinned down and mowed down my teams.

The attachment is from my Juno Beach data mod (the map is from GJS), where the Americans are forced to relieve the British after their initial landings are repulsed, and their airborne units were eliminated.

[squadleader_id]

Different preferences for different people I guess. But without a time limit...CC battles tend to be boring plodding affairs.&nbsp; The map you attached is from GJS, righ?&nbsp; The AI is even dumber on the bigger maps.
If you want to see how the AI attacks and manouver..."turn on always see the enemy" and watch the AI stumble around.
The AI in CC (especially CC4-CC5) needs triggers and a major revamp of the code so he understands basic tactics like flanking, supressing fire and combined arms tactics
The AI in WAR is a bit better...but still pretty dumb too at times.

[Stwa]

Hi squadleader_id,

Yes, the map is from GJS. And yes there are some huge maps. And yes again, you and I have a divergence in opinion, which is fine, becuase your last point is accepted. When there is no time limit this can be boring for many people.

1. In a no time limit game, on a huge map, the advantage can shift to an AI defender. Because you cant shoot up all your ammo and hold all the objetives at the same time.

2. The AI will use combined arms attacks, even if its by accident. The teams in each platoon and the 3 platoons together represent a combined armed force.

3. If the AI shoots his mortars or tanks at an enemy and shoots at them with a rifle squad at the same time he is using a combined arms attack.

4. If the AI uses an air strike or a naval barage during the game, he is using a combined arms attack.

5. The AI completely understands ambush and cover.

6. For infantry, flanks as a tactical concept have diminished in importance with the improvement of hand held weapons over time. The improvements allowed infantry to have large gaps in the line that could be covered by friendly units from a distance. As opposed to the old days when the line was sacred and men deployed shoulder to shoulder in a human wall.

7. Therefore, if you leave a large gap in your line, the AI can and will penetrate that gap, therefore exploiting the modern day notion of an exposed flank.

[squadleader_id]

ORIGINAL: Stwa


1. In a no time limit game, on a huge map, the advantage can shift to an AI defender. Because you cant shoot up all your ammo and hold all the objetives at the same time.

On the bigger maps yes...on the smaller maps (the original CC4-CC5 maps were small and suited the engine better) a time limit is a good option.

2. The AI will use combined arms attacks, even if its by accident. The teams in each platoon and the 3 platoons together represent a combined armed force.

3. If the AI shoots his mortars at an enemy an shoots at them with a rifle squad at the same time he is using a combined arms attack.

4. If the AI infantry is advancing and the AI fires his tank at human defenders near the infantry advance, this is a combined arms attack. I see it all the time.

The AI enjoys sending squads piece meal trying to occupy objectives...sometimes sending a second and third squad (not as a combined attacking force) even after the first poor squad was massacred.

Tanks and infantry interaction would be something you see in Andrew William's video AAR...the CC AI either send tanks alone without infantry support...or infantry without tank support. Only in Vetmods (where infantry is coded as vehicles) do we see tanks and infantry manouvering and assaulting together.
AI mortars fire at targets of opportunity...rarely softening up enemy defensive positions or covering an assault.
Are we playing the same game here? [:)]
You might see those tactics employed by the AI in CC2 and to some extent CC3...but CC4 and CC5?

5. The AI completely understands ambush and cover.

Agreed! Like I said before...the AI will provide you with a decent opponent on defense.
One thing though...the AI do not setup his forces. A lot of times the AI will deploy AT guns in the open too. In defense, the AI also likes to give away his position by moving without good reason.

6. For infantry, flanks as a tactical concept have diminished in importance with the improvement of hand held weapons over time. The improvements allowing infantry to basically have large gaps in the line that can be covered by friendly units form large distances. As opposed to the old days when the line was sacred and men deployed shoulder to shoulder in a human wall.

7. Therefore, if you leave a large gap in your line, the AI can and will penetrate that gap, therefore exploiting the modern day notion of an exposed flank.

Well with practice we can execute flanking manouvers in CC...but the AI isn't cabable of that.
Supressing the enemy, pinning him down and then finishing him off with a flanking assault is still very affective tactic in WW2.

Most CC5 players have given up on playing the AI because of its deficiencies...most veterans are strictly H2H players. I still enjoy playing the AI (mostly as attackers, using vetmods etc)...but I think you overate the CC4/CC5/WAR AI

[Stwa]

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id
Most CC5 players have given up on playing the AI because of its deficiencies...most veterans are strictly H2H players. I still enjoy playing the AI (mostly as attackers, using vetmods etc)...but I think you overate the CC4/CC5/WAR AI

Well, I do accept most of the points you make about the AI. And yes players have come to desire/expect a certain aggression level that makes CC fun for them. That, in my view, is not necessarily realistic. Players want fast action, explosions, screaming vetmods, where infantry behave like vehicles ... It makes the game fast, furious, and fun.

But, just because you have the game set on no time limit, does not mean you cannot achieve that same level of aggression that all CC players crave. So for our benefit, I have another screen shot. This is the Normandy map of Auville sur le Vey. Now, I am playing the Americans and I am going to Rambo the town in the first 15 minutes. I have a naval barage I intend on using and I am going to put up a smoke screen with my mortars. I have AT guns, cause I think I am gonna need em.

Normally, this map is defended by German paratroopers. But today, its defended by the 21st Panzer division and the AI is in charge.

Once I hit begin, the AI is so aggressive it vacates its position at the Machine Gun Nest and tries to Rambo the bridge. This is funny because its the AI and there is NO TIME LIMIT. Its also funny, because I am going to Rambo the bridge as well, but not until the naval barrage is complete.

Well, the German infantry gets plowed by the naval barrage, but enough of them make to the bridge, where they set up with their flame-throwers. Its too late since I have already orderd my troops accross, and as they run across the bridge, they are flamed.

Now the AI (you gotta admire its placement of the Panthers), is supporting its infantry with tanks. Even a 3rd rate AI can appreciate this kind of NO-BRAINER. I would call this a combined arms attack, because once the American infantry is wiped, you can bet the Panthers are going to roll on to the bridge. But, WAIT, I forget the AT's. If you'll check the screen shot, you will notice they are out of ammo. In the confusion, I forgot to order them to not fire. Oh well, I am toast....

All done in about 15 minutes. Yipee....

[Maxy]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

1.Too see the strat map and it's connections navigate to C:\Matrix Games\Close Combat Wacht am Rhein\Support\WaR_strat_Connections.pdf 

Print is out, Laminate it, you can even use it to sketch on and plan moves and counter moves.

2.The strat map can be scrolled using the sliders on the right and bottom of the map.


3.Will look at the fast scroll using the mouse.

4.Close Combat is real time Tactical combat - no orders while paused, that's for turn based games and would require a complete code rewrite.

I have printed it out, but it still doesn't help me with the strategic map in the game. Is it really impossible to have a zoom out option in the game?

I think the way you treat this opinion here is a bit arrogant. Have you seen Firaxis telling people to print out the world map to plan strategic moves in Civilization? No.. you can zoom out and actually draw your strategic moves IN the game.

Anyhow, the game is great. Thank you for it - I do not regret buying it. This is just the biggest issue for me and my H2H friend at the moment and we would like to see zooming out implemented in the game.

[Andrew Williams]

Thanks for the feedback Maxy

We have taken your remark on board.

please remember this is a rebuild of an old game.... but we are looking at this.

[Platoon_Michael]

My fingers are crossed.
That would be a huge addition to the game for me.

[TheReal_Pak40]

Strategy map tip:

instead of using the awkward scroll bars or autoscrolling, try using the small inset map that has the entire campaign area. You can actually click and drag across the inset map. It's the best and easiest way to "pan" across the strategic map.

Still, it would be nice if the autoscrolling was slowed down AND a zoom out button was added.

[Platoon_Michael]

I notice while on the start of a new turn the name of a BG that has no opponent to fight against  it doesnt tell you the name of your BG.
Also when previewing any of the maps for the upcomming battles (still @ the start of the turn) if always defaults back to Leidenborn.(atleast on where im at in my current GC)This is very annoying when trying to remember all ones moves for that turn.

My game also seems to crash on the first battle after a strat movement whenever I try to issues orders with waypoints on the zoomed out map during initial setup of the battle.

[Tejszd]

Thanks Platoon_Michael

I have confirmed/duplicated the missing BG name issue.

Haven't noticed or been able to duplicate the crash with waypoints when zoomed out but did notice they sometimes jump to another spot when zoomed out.