Calling all experts on historical reality

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rtrapasso
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by rtrapasso »

Hurricane : 200 x 2 = 400. 460 - 400 = 60. 60 = 13% of flight time remains.
60 miles @ 318 mph ( max. speed ) =12 minutes combat time.

Alas, air resistance goes up with the CUBE of the air velocity, iirc. So, if you are (approximately) (not quite) doubling your airspeed, you have instead of 60 miles of additional range, you have maybe a bit over 60/8, or say 10 miles of range at maximum power (presumably the power used in combat situations).* Essentially, you are at BINGO fuel at 200 miles (BINGO = 10% fuel reserves). You have very little time to fight, esp. if you might have your aircraft damaged, etc. which would increase drag (or fuel loss) causing loss of range, and most likely loss of the aircraft as a result.

As an example of air velocity effects in everyday life, mpg in cars drops by about 40% going from 55 mph to 70 mph (it would be about 50%, but some of the energy a car uses in moving down the road is from rolling resistance, not just wind resistance).

*EDIT - actually, you have about 25% of the range, about 15 miles, based on (200/318)^3 = 24.877%
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Panther Bait
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by Panther Bait »

Regarding the Battle of Berlin, the Me109 was notoriously short-legged.  Their combat time over London was extremely limited and the German pilot had to keep one eye on the fuel gauge.  It was an important reason leading to the eventual German defeat. 
 
However, I am not sure that either side in the Battle of Britain attempted to maintain what we are calling LRCAP.  The Germans were generally using close escort of bomber strikes and/or loose escort intended to perform something like fighter sweeps.  The British were using early warning RADAR and interception tactics.  They generally stayed on the ground until a raid was detected, and then were vectored towards the bombers.
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borner
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by borner »

One interesting thing about the ME-109 is Germany was about 6 months late in designing an external tank for it.
 
GB's radar system allowed them to not have to fly much cap, making each group far more effective. How the Germans never figured this out is one of the great questions of the battle.
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by m10bob »

Don't remember the source yet, but some of those external tanks had no device to allow the tanks to be released from the cockpit, some were never meant to be dropped, and some pilots were ordered not to drop due to short supply of the tanks.
Some tanks were even made of lacquered paper.

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castor troy
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: borner

One interesting thing about the ME-109 is Germany was about 6 months late in designing an external tank for it.

GB's radar system allowed them to not have to fly much cap, making each group far more effective. How the Germans never figured this out is one of the great questions of the battle.


Guess they figured it out, that´s the reason they tried to (unsuccesfully) knock the radar stations out at the beginning of the fighting. I think they didn´t figure out just how much important those radar stations were.
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DEB
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by DEB »

( Information taken from the book " Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" by René J. Francillon - Putnam Press )

The book comments that " the lack of airfields close to the combat area forced the A6M3s to operate from bases located some 560 naut miles
[ 645 statute miles ] from Guadalcanal".

Further to the above. This shows that the Japanese were historically attempting to use the Zero for LRCAP at a range of 645 Miles ( higher than that stated as used in the game ).

This LRCAP range figure gives the following CAP air times over the target for the following Zero types:-

A6M2 : 1 hour 56 minutes ( based on max. speed mph ).
A6M3 : 33 minutes ( based on max. speed mph ).
A6M5 : Nil. To achieve a time of 33 minutes the maximum LRCAP would have to be at 450 miles. ( Not available until Autumn 43 anyway. )

This makes an in game LRCAP range of 400 - 500 miles ( game quoted maximum extended radius of 710 miles ( A6M2 ) and 550 miles
( A6M3 ) ) for the Zero pretty reasonable.

As for other aircraft, it should be noted that Oscar's ( 1,990 miles max. range, 650 miles maximum extended radius ), are capable of operating at approx. 470 miles with LRCAP.
P-38G's ( 1,420 miles max. range, 480 miles maximum extended radius ), P-38J's ( 2,260 miles max. range, 550 miles maximum extended radius ) and P-51's ( 2,080 miles max. range, 580 miles maximum extended radius ), are all capable of operating between approx. 350 & 420 miles, with LRCAP ( using drop tanks ). Anyone wishing to apply a house rule re LRCAP should therefore also take these planes into consideration.
( NB. max. range figures sourced from books at home; max. extended range figures taken directly from the game. )

Whilst not proving anything regarding the EFFECTIVE range of LRCAP, the figures produced above ( and previously ) should dispel the illusion of of the person who's comment was ( paraphrased ) that the planes would
" bingo" when they got there!

NB. Bingo ( as I understand it from a poster here ), refers to going down to your last 10% of fuel. Flying 1,930 miles ( A6M2 maximum range ) at a cruising speed of 207 mph takes 9.32 hours. Therefore the 1 hour 56 minutes quoted above represents 20.74% of fuel. However, allowance HAS been made for fuel for the return flight. Therefore approx. 39.63% of fuel is used on the journey to the LRCAP area, 20.74% is used there, and the remaining 39.63% is used on the way home. "Bingo" therefore occurs near the home base.
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by Charbroiled »

ORIGINAL: DEB

NB. Bingo ( as I understand it from a poster here ), refers to going down to your last 10% of fuel. Flying 1,930 miles ( A6M2 maximum range ) at a cruising speed of 207 mph takes 9.32 hours. Therefore the 1 hour 56 minutes quoted above represents 20.74% of fuel. However, allowance HAS been made for fuel for the return flight. Therefore approx. 39.63% of fuel is used on the journey to the LRCAP area, 20.74% is used there, and the remaining 39.63% is used on the way home. "Bingo" therefore occurs near the home base.

"Bingo" is the point of no return. It is the the point where a plane has the minimum amount of fuel left in it's tank in order to return to base.
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by Nomad »

Bingo Fuel would be the point at which an aircraft had a save amount of fuel left for return. I believe that is usually the amount that is precalculated plus 10% - but TheElf would be more up on that term. [8D]

And a link to reference
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by m10bob »

If planes inteded for LRCAP are intercepted enroute to their assigned area, and have to drop the external tanks, their "loiter time" clock just started ticking.
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DEB
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by DEB »

Fair enough chaps, I'll accept that.

The A6M2 however, still has "bingo" fuel plus 10.74% ( 60 mins LRCAP flying time ) at LRCAP range of 645 miles ( distance Rabual to Lunga );and a " bingo fuel plus 6.50% ( 36 mins LRCAP flying time ) at LRCAP range of 710 miles.

It should be noted also ( although how/if this works in game terms I do not know ), that planes from Rabual, if short of fuel on the way home, could go to Buka ( a saving of approx. 175 miles - 50mins ), Buin ( a saving of 325 miles - 94 mins ), or one of the 2/3 airfields inbetween.
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rtrapasso
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by rtrapasso »

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Bingo Fuel would be the point at which an aircraft had a save amount of fuel left for return. I believe that is usually the amount that is precalculated plus 10% - but TheElf would be more up on that term. [8D]

And a link to reference
Right - you generally need a 10% fuel reserve to have a good chance on getting back to base, since weather conditions might be adverse (a good strong headwind will ruin your day if you used 50% of your fuel on the way out). [X(]

It should be noted that the most common cause (or so i've recently read) of General Aviation (i.e. private pilots, generally flying propellor planes) crashes is running out of fuel - and they don't have to deal with battle damage, etc.

However, even if you LRCAP from 560 nautical miles/645 miles, the A6M2 model 21 is 1675 nautical miles - 10% (fuel reserve) = 1507.5 nautical miles, giving a range of 387.5 nmiles on station AT CRUISE SPEED. Cruise speed is 180 kts, max speed is 288 kts. You could theoretically have a loiter time of about 2 hours over target IF THERE WAS NO COMBAT.

If there was combat, your time over target is (180/288)^3 = 24.4% of that, or about 30 minutes.

The Japanese would try diverting to smaller airfields such as Buin, with mixed result. Many of the Zeros had no radios, and there are a lot of clouds in the Solomons so navigation could be a real problem... lots of planes got lost trying to find unfamiliar airfields and ditched (or crashed) as a result.

Notice, that in order to have 30 minutes - 2 hours over target, you need a mission time of 7 hours in transit + time over target (let's average it and say it is 2+.5/2 = 1.25 hours.)

If you want to get coverage over the target for 12 hours (sunrise to sunset) - your daitai of (say) 16 planes is only going to be able to have around 2 planes defending the target at any one time, which is not going to be terribly effective.*

All an attacker would have to do is send in a few fighters, dogfight for a bit, the defenders would have to Return to Base (RTB) - then the attackers could send in his bombers.

*EDIT: Note, that even in this scenario, the planes flying later in the day are going to be RTB in darkness - something that both sides were generally loathe to do.

ANOTHER EDIT:
NB. Bingo ( as I understand it from a poster here ), refers to going down to your last 10% of fuel. Flying 1,930 miles ( A6M2 maximum range ) at a cruising speed of 207 mph takes 9.32 hours. Therefore the 1 hour 56 minutes quoted above represents 20.74% of fuel. However, allowance HAS been made for fuel for the return flight. Therefore approx. 39.63% of fuel is used on the journey to the LRCAP area, 20.74% is used there, and the remaining 39.63% is used on the way home. "Bingo" therefore occurs near the home base.

10% fuel RESERVES, not 10% fuel... the reserves being the amount of fuel needed to return to base. So, simplistically, the pilot would plan for 45% fuel to get to station, 45% to return, 10% for the unexpected. Even with 10% "extra", pilots get extremely nervous flying beyond bingo, and if they are smart they won't do it.
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by Nikademus »

yup....and the field at Buin wasn't much to speak off and many a Japanese plane and pilot cracked up on landing assuming they made it back in the first place. Ultimately such attempts at LRCAP were not practical nor effective. They tried them in places because they had no other option. Even Junyo's attempt at LRCAP at a "mere" 200 miles away proved less than spectacular (see my post on the losses she suffered )
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by RUPD3658 »

LRCAP suffers from terrible Ops losses. In a PBEM I played I tried setting a trap for unescorted B-24s from PM by staioning a juicy TF of 100 AP/AKs just north of Rabaul and LRCapping it from rabaul (2 hexes away) with about 150 Zeros. I was losing 10-15 to Ops losses every 2 day turn and the B-24s never came out to play. [:(]
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by DEB »

It should be noted that in addition to the previously advised 60 minute LRCAP time for the A6M2 ( Rabaul to Lunga -approx. 645 miles ) prior to "bingo" fuel levels, the following also applies :-

The A6M3 Zero ( if based at Buka ) has a LRCAP of 1 hour 9 minutes over Lunga before "bingo" fuel levels apply. Buka is approx. 470 miles from Lunga.

The A6M5 Zero ( if based at Buin ) has a LRCAP of 1 hour 14 minutes over Lunga before "bingo" fuel levels apply. Buin is approx. 320 miles from Lunga.

Again as to how effective/practicable LRCAP is at these ( or any ) ranges
is another matter. The points above simply show the range could be achieved and still leave a reasonable CAP time.

Evidently, if combat actually occured the CAP time drops somewhat.
I'll have to take the formula quoted as reasonable, but would be interested in tracing the source of this information if it can be provided.
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by DEB »

ORIGINAL: m10bob

If planes inteded for LRCAP are intercepted enroute to their assigned area, and have to drop the external tanks, their "loiter time" clock just started ticking.

I would presume that such an interception would cause them to return home anyway ( game & real life ).
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by DEB »

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


If you want to get coverage over the target for 12 hours (sunrise to sunset) - your daitai of (say) 16 planes is only going to be able to have around 2 planes defending the target at any one time, which is not going to be terribly effective.

It's likely that if a major LRCAP operation is being done, then several "daitai's" would be used. How many who knows!

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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by DEB »

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

LRCAP suffers from terrible Ops losses. In a PBEM I played I tried setting a trap for unescorted B-24s from PM by staioning a juicy TF of 100 AP/AKs just north of Rabaul and LRCapping it from rabaul (2 hexes away) with about 150 Zeros. I was losing 10-15 to Ops losses every 2 day turn and the B-24s never came out to play. [:(]

The OPS losses may well be high, that is a risk you decide to take or not as the case may be. HansBolter believed he gained an unfair advantage using Japanese LRCAP, so maybe his OPS losses were low (?) or were just accepted.
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by DEB »

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

Regarding the Battle of Berlin, the Me109 was notoriously short-legged.  Their combat time over London was extremely limited and the German pilot had to keep one eye on the fuel gauge.  It was an important reason leading to the eventual German defeat. 


I think you mean the Battle of Britain. Generally you are right. The ME 109's range barely took in southern England / London, and they were usually on escort duty. LRCAP / CAP occurred over the English Channel.
However, I am not sure that either side in the Battle of Britain attempted to maintain what we are calling LRCAP.  The Germans were generally using close escort of bomber strikes and/or loose escort intended to perform something like fighter sweeps.  The British were using early warning RADAR and interception tactics.  They generally stayed on the ground until a raid was detected, and then were vectored towards the bombers.

Very true. I was guessing when I said Battle of Britain. Note the IF in the sentence in my original post. Unsure what else the "200 mile" LRCAP in Europe referred to though, and no response to my query re that since.
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by Nikademus »

I think his primary complaint was that the LRCAP prevented bombers from attempting any attack at all....in which case he'd be right.
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RE: Calling all experts on historical reality

Post by rtrapasso »

ORIGINAL: DEB

It should be noted that in addition to the previously advised 60 minute LRCAP time for the A6M2 ( Rabaul to Lunga -approx. 645 miles ) prior to "bingo" fuel levels, the following also applies :-

The A6M3 Zero ( if based at Buka ) has a LRCAP of 1 hour 9 minutes over Lunga before "bingo" fuel levels apply. Buka is approx. 470 miles from Lunga.

The A6M5 Zero ( if based at Buin ) has a LRCAP of 1 hour 14 minutes over Lunga before "bingo" fuel levels apply. Buin is approx. 320 miles from Lunga.

Again as to how effective/practicable LRCAP is at these ( or any ) ranges
is another matter. The points above simply show the range could be achieved and still leave a reasonable CAP time.

Evidently, if combat actually occured the CAP time drops somewhat.
I'll have to take the formula quoted as reasonable, but would be interested in tracing the source of this information if it can be provided.

The airfields were not even started to be under construction until August 1942 (Kahili/Buin) - by the time they were finished, the air battles were largely decided (although the US hadn't realized it then) and the Japanese were on the rapid downhill slide. See "Fire in the Sky" below:

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