Captured Turkish feudal "factors"

[Jimmer]

Does anybody have any idea what will happen to some feudal infantry that are captured by an enemy, should the two powers still be at war come December? GWheelock and I were discussing this, since it came up in the CleverDevils2 game this month.

I can see a whole raft of possibilities, very few of them even plausible as correct. Looking at the rules, I can't find anything that discusses surrendered feudal factors.

I *THINK* that the way it should be played is that they factors in "jail" basically get vaporized in the December Turkish phase if he stands up the corps, and the corps stands up at full strength.

But, I can make an argument that is almost equally valid that:

1) They can stand up, but only with a number of factors equal to the non-surrendered portion of the corps, or
2) They can't stand up, because the "corps" is captured, or
3) (a slightly less persuasive position) all of that corp counter's factors are considered captured, along with the corps

Each of those four can have a more or less plausible case made for them from the rules. So, just thinking about what the right answer is will prove to be work.

But, let's go one step further: What will the COMPUTER think? Does anybody know?

[gwheelock]

And what happens when the corp is stood back up & the war ends AFTER December?
 
Do the captured factors evaporate?
Do they get returned as "loose" feudals that can be added to any corp?
Do the get returned as feudals that can only be added their specific source corp?
 (& if that corp is full; can it be "overloaded"?)
Does the program just lock up or start puking all over the place?

[DCWhitworth]

This is an interesting point because I don't believe it was covered in the original board game rules. It's not something I've ever seen happen.

One quick test later - When a feudal corps surrenders the corp is returned empty to the Turkish force pool, the factors are treated as regular infantry prisoners. So when the prisoners are returned they are returned as regular infantry.

I haven't wound the game forwards to December but I guess the feudal corps is now permanently dissociated from it's factors.

Looks like this is a bit of a bug, a quick fix would be to have feudal factors vanish if captured I guess.

[bresh]

Offcourse Turkey can raise full corps.
 
As far as i remember Spainish and Turkish factors could not surrender.
 
Nor can you ever reinforce a feudal corps, so guessing bug and that these factors act like normal regular inf factors when returned. 
 
Regards
Bresh

[DCWhitworth]

ORIGINAL: bresh

Offcourse Turkey can raise full corps.

As far as i remember Spainish and Turkish factors could not surrender.

Nor can you ever reinforce a feudal corps, so guessing bug and that these factors act like normal regular inf factors when returned. 

Regards
Bresh

Not quite right, Turkish and Spanish garrisons could not ask for 'Honours of War', something that hasn't been implemented in EiANW.

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth

ORIGINAL: bresh

Offcourse Turkey can raise full corps.

As far as i remember Spainish and Turkish factors could not surrender.

Nor can you ever reinforce a feudal corps, so guessing bug and that these factors act like normal regular inf factors when returned. 

Regards
Bresh

Not quite right, Turkish and Spanish garrisons could not ask for 'Honours of War', something that hasn't been implemented in EiANW.

Ahh, yes i didnt bother to check the rules. Just remembered there was something special about surrendering, and thought to remember they could not.

Regards
Bresh

[MarshallEllis]

We probably just need to vaporize them as opposed to capture? This way they are not converted to regular infantry. This sound good?
 

[Mardonius]

Darn. There goes my grande strategy for Turkey.

[DCWhitworth]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

We probably just need to vaporize them as opposed to capture? This way they are not converted to regular infantry. This sound good?

Sounds sensible. It's an unlikely occurrence so a quick fix like that should be fine.

[MarshallEllis]

I hope "vaporizing" was not too harsh a term?
How bout "Return them to their homes for raising later"?
 
 

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth

This is an interesting point because I don't believe it was covered in the original board game rules. It's not something I've ever seen happen.

We saw it in the boardgame once or twice. And, it just happened in CleverDevils2 with EIANW. Except, we haven't gotten to December.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth
One quick test later - When a feudal corps surrenders the corp is returned empty to the Turkish force pool, the factors are treated as regular infantry prisoners. So when the prisoners are returned they are returned as regular infantry.

I haven't wound the game forwards to December but I guess the feudal corps is now permanently dissociated from it's factors.

Looks like this is a bit of a bug, a quick fix would be to have feudal factors vanish if captured I guess.

This is what I was afraid of. Turning feudal factors into regular infantry would be a disastrous game-unbalancer (for Turkey's neighbors, that is). Except, it could be mitigated by the fact that the feudal corps is now gone forever.

Eeeek!

I think we need more testing. This one could be trouble, methinks.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

We probably just need to vaporize them as opposed to capture? This way they are not converted to regular infantry. This sound good?

No, that's not right, either. Because, let's say Turkey loses Rumelia (with 5 remaining cavalry) in June, and surrenders in July. In August, Turkey should be able to plop the Rumelia corps on map, at strength 5.

Crossing the December boundary is where it would get REALLY messy. You could have Rumelia come back in December's econ phase with strength 13. Or, as 8 cav in the corps and five in a city (assuming Turkey surrendered in January). Etc.

This could get ugly.

[MarshallEllis]

Jimmer:

It will not get ugly. I must vaporize them because of the December levy. Worst case scenario, the unit will be raised to full strength in 11 months EVEN if Turkey is still at war with the MP that took the corps (And Turkey still controls the province with no enemy inside of it). This may not be perfect but I have no more room for ugly so this is best for now.

[DCWhitworth]

Well this wasn't covered by the original game rules so whatever you decide is law Marshall [;)]

[ndrose]

This makes sense to me. Captured feudals seek political asylum, and the Turks have to go get their brothers and cousins next December.

[MarshallEllis]

ORIGINAL: ndrose

This makes sense to me. Captured feudals seek political asylum, and the Turks have to go get their brothers and cousins next December.

This is a good abstraction precedent!

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Jimmer:

It will not get ugly. I must vaporize them because of the December levy. Worst case scenario, the unit will be raised to full strength in 11 months EVEN if Turkey is still at war with the MP that took the corps (And Turkey still controls the province with no enemy inside of it). This may not be perfect but I have no more room for ugly so this is best for now.

Actually, I believe that this is what SHOULD happen in this situation (Turkey still at war, etc).

But, that's only one end case.

Still, this is hardly a top-priority item. If something goes wrong, we can use the host edit capabilities to offset it somehow. But, for the longer term, you should make a list of all of the possible scenarios (many listed here on this thread), so you can come up with answers.

Perhaps the best thing to do would be to vaporize the troops after land movement/combat in December, but allow them to return normally in the econ phase. So, the only thing that would change is the entry in the surrendered boys dialog box, and then only in late December.

I do believe that they should be able to be re-levied at full strength (assuming the province isn't occupied). The other end-cases may not matter if you do the December thing.

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: DCWhitworth

Well this wasn't covered by the original game rules so whatever you decide is law Marshall [;)]

Excellent point!

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

ORIGINAL: ndrose

This makes sense to me. Captured feudals seek political asylum, and the Turks have to go get their brothers and cousins next December.

This is a good abstraction precedent!

OK, for version 2, I want to see the prisoners' faces behind bars, and then being set free. There's your top priority graphics challenge for version 2.


[:D]
[8D]