RN Old AND New Cruiser eratta

[el cid again]

This material appears to apply generally to all CHS and RHS variations - but not to stock which did not have these old ships included.

Columbo should be Capetown Class vice Caledon - that is 235 vice 234.

Capetown should NOT appear at the start of the game. Damaged in June 1941 she spent "about a year" under repair. She did join the Eastern Fleet in 1942 - around 1 July apparently - depending on transit time.

Slot 3280 in RHS - I think it is one off of that value in CHS.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Columbo should not appear at the start of the game. Damaged in June 1941 she spent "about a year" under repair. She did join the Eastern Fleet in 1942 - around 1 July apparently - depending on transit time.

She was transferred to the Eastern Fleet in March 1942 after arriving in Aden after providing escort to a convoy. She was around until Apr 6th when she was released for passge back to the UK. From July-Dec 1942 she was under refit in Devonport, being converted to an AA cruiser. After that she went to the Med.

[el cid again]

If she only served a month or so - and never came back - maybe we should delete her from the game? Once she enters - she won't leave - well ANY UK cruiser can leave - but few players do that.

[el cid again]

In scenarios with no London Naval Treaty - EEO and EBO - the RN 6 gun lights (Arethusa) should be repeat Leander.

The Edinburgh would be 8 gun 8 inch heavies. The Fiji would be Edinburgh type - improved Southampton CL type.
Uganda would be the same - Edinburgh type but with better AAA. Both Fiji and Uganda were smaller than desired to honor the treaty.

Minoteaur / Tiger would remain a CL - because by that time they could have done anything - and elected for a CL configuration.
More or less 9 gun variations of Edinburgh with better AAA - that is no change (Tiger is only in EOS family).

[el cid again]

RNZN Gambia is listed appearing in 1944 - but she served with the Eastern Fleet from completion - and also in the Madagascar operation - so we will assign her to Aden from 21 March 1942 - one month after completion to work up and transit. She also changes class to early Fiji form in all except EEO or EBO - when she takes on Edinburgh Form (due to no London Treaty limitation in those scenarios). She is ship slot 3261 - class slot 221 (218 in EEO/EBO).

RN Newcastle should appear about 27 Mar 1943 - vice 15 Apr 42 as in stock and everything since.

[el cid again]

It appears HMS Belfast is not in the OB - but ought to be. This is curious as the Edenburgh class is defined - in CHS and therefore in RHS - but neither of the ships of the class appear. Edinburgh herself never was assigned to a PTO command - but Belfast was - appearing in Sydney about 1 Aug 1945 - after refitting specifically for PTO operations. RHS can have her appear at the map edge somewhat sooner.

[el cid again]

HMS Kenya should not appear until about 1 Jan 1944 at Aden - so should be a later variant of the Fiji class = ship slot 3285 as class slot 1422.
In EEO and EBO she will be Edinburgh class 1420.

HMN Nigeria should appear sooner = about 15 Mar 1943 at Aden - so should be an earlier variant of the Fiji class = ship slot 3288 as class slot 221. In EEO and EBO she will be Edinburgh class 218.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

HMN Nigeria should appear sooner = about 15 Mar 1943 at Aden - so should be an earlier variant of the Fiji class = ship slot 3288 as class slot 221. In EEO and EBO she will be Edinburgh class 218.

Do you mind if I ask why she's an Edinburgh? Also, are you sure about 1943? I believe that in MArch 1943 she in refit in the USA.

[DuckofTindalos]

Yeah, seems sort of odd, what with her being a completely different class...

[el cid again]

Whilst under repair the Canadian government negotiated with Britain to obtain Uganda for the Royal Canadian Navy.

The official transfer took place on Trafalgar Day, 21 October 1944 and she was renamed HMCS Uganda (C66).

As the flagship for the RCN, Uganda served in the Pacific War with the British Pacific Fleet and the United States Third Fleet. She received battle honours for operations during the Battle of Okinawa and was involved in attacking Formosa and Sakishima Gunto. Controversially, her RCN crew were polled by the Canadian government on 7 May 1945 to determine whether they would volunteer for further duties in the Pacific War; the result saw 605 of her crew of 907 refuse to volunteer.[1] and HMCS Uganda withdrew to Esquimalt, arriving back in the Canadian port on 10 August 1945, the date of Japanese surrender.

On 1 August 1947, HMCS Uganda was paid off into the RCN reserve.

She was reactivated on 14 January 1952 as a result of the Korean War and was recommissioned as HMCS Quebec (C66), serving two tours in the Korean War theatre, as well as taking part in the RCN task force attending the review of the fleet at Spithead for the coronation of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. She was paid off in June 1956 and scrapped in Japan in 1961.

FROM THE ABOVE it appears Uganda should be renamed RCN Quebec - and should appear sooner than she does in WITP.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: el cid again

HMN Nigeria should appear sooner = about 15 Mar 1943 at Aden - so should be an earlier variant of the Fiji class = ship slot 3288 as class slot 221. In EEO and EBO she will be Edinburgh class 218.

Do you mind if I ask why she's an Edinburgh? Also, are you sure about 1943? I believe that in MArch 1943 she in refit in the USA.

As explained above - in two of our scenarios - the London Treaty does not apply. The Fiji class was a treaty creature - the ships were smaller than the preceeding Southampton and its variation - the Edinburgh were. The naval arms race in these two scenarios (EEO and EBO) would have allowed no justification for a unilateral observance of the non-existant treaty limits. For this reason - the two Edinburghs as such are recast as 8 inch cruisers - and the Fiji's are CLs of the sort Edinburghs were - the latest full size design available. One other change is not implemented - the Arethusas were built as Leanders - but none served in theater - so it does not matter. This helps offset the various other ships added in these scenarios to other countries - which RN was unable to match very well. Like Japan - UK could not afford to actually build more hulls - so the focus went to quality of each hull.

RHS is a mixture of three "families" of scenarios. Two of these feature strictly historical ships - CVO scenarios the ships as they were actually built - and BBO scenarios the ships as pre and early war planning envisaged them (which is probably the most likely way things would normally happen). Only in EOS family is there a significant departure - and it is strictly limited: EOS itself - and AIO - and MAIO - have far fewer changes than the EEO and EBO do - because EEO involves changes since the end of 1936 and EBO since the end of 1932. In some ways the RN was not changed as much as it should be - and since there are cruiser eratta - I decided to incorporate the lessons learned at the same time. People who prefer to play the war as it was should be playing CVO or BBO family scenarios - not EOS.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

As explained above - in two of our scenarios - the London Treaty does not apply. The Fiji class was a treaty creature - the ships were smaller than the preceeding Southampton and its variation - the Edinburgh were. The naval arms race in these two scenarios (EEO and EBO) would have allowed no justification for a unilateral observance of the non-existant treaty limits. For this reason - the two Edinburghs as such are recast as 8 inch cruisers - and the Fiji's are CLs of the sort Edinburghs were - the latest full size design available. One other change is not implemented - the Arethusas were built as Leanders - but none served in theater - so it does not matter. This helps offset the various other ships added in these scenarios to other countries - which RN was unable to match very well. Like Japan - UK could not afford to actually build more hulls - so the focus went to quality of each hull.

Ah that explains it, I hadn't really read the notes. [:)]

[el cid again]

HMS Bermuda should arrive on the map edge about 4 months later - and be a later version of Fiji class. Ship slot 3282 should be class slot 1625 in almost all scenarios - and 1622 in EEO and BBO. Arrival about 1 June 1945 at New Orleans - able to transit the ocean in time to arrive in Australia when she really did get there.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

City names IMHO are not proper for heavy cruisers. You better use names for cancelled in 1930 CAs Surrey and Northumberland instead of Edinburgh and Belfast.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

City names IMHO are not proper for heavy cruisers. You better use names for cancelled in 1930 CAs Surrey and Northumberland instead of Edinburgh and Belfast.

Apart from York and Exeter [:D] I would agree that Edinburgh and Belfast are not heavy cruiser names though.

It's not my decision, but I'd name the other two CAs you're proposing as either Surrey and Northumberland. Or if they aren't Counties then I'd go with something from the following list:
Lincoln
Chester
Hereford
Lichfield
Rochester
Durham
Norwich
St Albans
Ely

All English Cathedral cities, so they'd fit with the 'pattern' of York and Exeter. A couple of the names were used for RN flush deckers IRL.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

You have also names from WWI armoured criusers: Donegal, Essex, Lancaster, Monmouth, Carnarvon, Hampshire, Roxburgh.

(Argyll and Antrim are Irish counties?)

EDIT: Seeems that Argyll is not. But Donegal is.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

City names IMHO are not proper for heavy cruisers. You better use names for cancelled in 1930 CAs Surrey and Northumberland instead of Edinburgh and Belfast.

Well- we certainly used city names for heavy cruisers in USN - as did RAN (Canberra anyone?)

Tell me more - I am not seeing listings for Surrey and Northumberland - and we might want them in EEO or EBO

Never mind. I found them.

Not sure how we will rationalize the building of RN cruisers in the absense of the London Treaty?
But looks like maybe we can go with the logic above. In any case - the names would have been used if another pair of CAs were forthcoming - so we will use them.

[el cid again]

A problem in all forms of WITP - apparently -

Uganda Class (Uganda herself is to be renamed Quebec in RHS in honor of her actual name for wartime service in RCN)
including Newfoundland and Ceylon should be different from Fijis. Although ordered as Fijis - they were delayed because of the disruptions caused by Dunkirk - and their design recast. They have one fewer 6 inch turrets and more medium AAA - and 20 mm for light AAA as completed. They do not seem to refit with Bofors 40mm like Fijis do - but retain the 2 pounder.

Looks like EEO can do Fijis and then switch to renamed Edinburghs - but EBO may need to be recast. The Surrey class became the Fijis - so maybe we will go that way with EBO. But in that case - what of the Leanders? Would they have been designed at all?


EDIT - Uganda served until 1952 with that name - so Quebec is not a historical WWII era name.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

You have also names from WWI armoured criusers: Donegal, Essex, Lancaster, Monmouth, Carnarvon, Hampshire, Roxburgh.

(Argyll and Antrim are Irish counties?)

EDIT: Seeems that Argyll is not. But Donegal is.

For EBO we have a problem - the light cruiser program might not have been invented - and the Surrey's would appear as repeated Counties.
The Town evolved from Surrey - so follow on ships likely would be 8 inch versions of that - and if CAs need different names - we may need to use these suggestions. I don't entirely follow why different names: Mogami is Mogami, CL or CA. Same for Tone.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I don't entirely follow why different names: Mogami is Mogami, CL or CA. Same for Tone.

Because we're British [:D] The RN had (still has) quite a strict naming policy iirc. There is often (but not always) a method to the madness.

As far as the cruisers you are talking about, if the RN had built further ships of the same basic design as the remaining two Norfolk class ships then they would have been named after other English (and maybe Scottish?) counties. Further ships along the lines of York/Exeter would probably have been English cathedral cities (maybe because they were smaller than the county class?).