Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Empires in Arms is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. Empires in Arms is a seven player game of grand strategy set during the Napoleonic period of 1805-1815. The unit scale is corps level with full diplomatic options

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NeverMan
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by NeverMan »

ORIGINAL: Thresh

So it's just easier for you to assume that anyone else you're playing with it cheating, but you're a paragon of virtue?

That's High class there...

Todd


ORIGINAL: NeverMan

To me (a bit of a paranoid) it just sucks knowing it's this easy to cheat. I'd like to trust people but at the end of the day it's not worth it to play a game that takes so much time when you know the other guy can decide his own fate simply by reloading his turn.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth!

Nice personal insult too.

If getting this thread shut down was your goal you probably succeeded. Erik certainly looks for any excuse to shut down a thread with anything negative about this game.
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Archiduque
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by Archiduque »

The question is not about trust or not trust. The question is that if i have assaulted three cities and had luck enough to breache them all, my fellow will be thinking "uh, too many luck, isn't it?". Obviously, he will forget the two forage 6 i had with a forage value of 5, or the two assaults i couldn't breach turns before. Only that i had too many luck this turn. I would prefer cheating to be impossible.

A possible solution: what about a register of loaded phases with dice rolls made?. I think Steel Panthers had it: when you loaded your game, it stated how many times your opponent loaded his. It would be very strange if anybodoy loads two or more times.
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Marshall Ellis
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by Marshall Ellis »

Look to have something like this in 1.05-1.06
 
Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


pzgndr
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by pzgndr »

Erik certainly looks for any excuse to shut down a thread with anything negative about this game.

Erik has an issue?? It seems pretty obvious that Neverman looks for any excuse to jump into every thread here and say something negative and/or insulting about the game and its developers. That's bashing, with an agenda. It is becoming very tiresome to see every EiANW thread infected with such unhealthy negativism. No game for entertainment purposes warrants this kind of deliberate and repetitive harassment. It is just a game! If it's not for you, suck it up and go away. The majority of players here seem genuinely interested in moving the game forward towards resolving known issues and should not have to put up with this nonsense.
6 Difficult Types of People and How to Deal With Them
by Clay Tucker-Ladd, Ph.D.
April 15, 2008

2. The Chronic Complainer
What about the chronic complainers? They are fault-finding, blaming, and certain about what should be done but they never seem able to correct the situation by themselves. Often they have a point — there are real problems — but their complaining is not effective (except it is designed to prove someone else is responsible).

Coping with complainers involves, first, listening and asking clarifying questions, even if you feel guilty or falsely accused. There are several don’ts: don’t agree with the complaints, don’t apologize (not immediately), and don’t become overly defensive or counter-attack because this only causes them to restate their complaints more heatedly. Secondly, as you gather facts, create a problem-solving attitude. Be serious and supportive. Acknowledge the facts. Get the complaints in writing and in precise detail; get others, including the complainer, involved in collecting more data that might lead to a solution. In addition to what is wrong, ask “What should happen?” If the complainer is unhappy with someone else, not you, you may want to ask, “Have you told (the complainee) yet?” or “Can I tell __________?” or “Can I set up a meeting with them?” Thirdly, plan a specific time to make decisions cooperatively that will help the situation…and do it.

It also seems pretty obvious that Marshall and Matrix have been very forthcoming in acknowledging complaints and resolving issues, slowly but surely. What more can be expected at this point? But none of that matters to a chronic complainer. [8|]

Bill Macon
Empires in Arms Developer
Strategic Command Developer
bresh
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by bresh »

I do think games should have the option to not allow the quick field combats that involve 1 solo corps. 
So a game can has it on or off. But  you loose more than gaining in my view game.wise, you loose intell, you might choose different chit depending if you fight 1 or 2+ corps etc.
 
Another reason is Insurrection corps are bit of a joke, since you can not give them orders while in force-pool.  Nor can you place them yourself if enemy forces within Austria home-border.
 
But its also to help vs the doubts, about "odd" attacker chits.
 
Regards
Bresh
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Jimmer
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by Jimmer »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Look to have something like this in 1.05-1.06
DancingBear's fix seems logical, but there is a big hole in it. We've discussed this before, and should again as you are getting ready to implement any changes.

The problem is that it doesn't matter to the person reloading the file whether the rolls are in order or not. He can just choose a different order for the battles, and see if the results are better. It's a step in the right direction, but not a complete fix. At least, with predetermined rolls, he can't just reload; he has to actually reload and make battles, to see what happens.

In addition to this, two other things need to occur. The first is that a trusted authority (see below) must be contacted once a person starts up the combat phase (or, ends the movement phase). Once this happens, some kind of token must change hands that allows the person to continue into the battle. Unfortunately, the only truly secure way to do this is to involve another person, since any attempt to make the trusted authority be present on the cheater's system means that he can overcome it.

The second is that the person can only execute the combat phase once when he sends out the token. Now, because of the complexity of this (the player can choose to fight battles in any order), this effectively means that either the token must be updated each time a battle event occurs, or else a new token must be sent. I think the latter is better, but see below.

Finally, the random number cannot be pregenerated just "100 in advance". The person could overcome the token method by fighting one battle at a time over and over, and intercept all the tokens except the one he wants to use. I think instead, a combination of die rolling processes must be invoked. First, each area on the map should have a short list of predetermined die rolls attached to that location. So, now, changing the order does no good. Instead, he would have to abandon a battle if the rolls were determined to be bad for our friend the cheater. But, he can't do that if he's already passed a token.

Is this secure? No, nothing is. But, it's easily coded (except adding the pool of random rolls to each area on the map, possibly), and should be able to be added in stages. This would allow us to test out each piece of the security puzzle by itself, and make sure it doesn't damage other things inadvertently.

OK, I promised a discussion on tokens above. A token is simply a construct (file or database key in this case). A copy of the token is kept by the phasing player's copy of the game. This construct is created uniquely, in a similar fashion to how the PBM files are names. But, since the token is a lot more specific in its usage, that means that the uniqueness has to come down to something akin to the date and the system clock. This has the drawback of allowing people to change their time stamp as a way of hacking the code, but there are very few people who could pull something like that off ...

IF the token is encrypted. Even public-domain 40-bit encryption would be enough for all but the most determined hackers. And, testing out the theories would require many tokens, which means many months of playing. If they're THAT desperate, I'll just let them win. But, for the first pass, encryption should be left out for debugging purposes. It can be coded, but not turned on (should be coded to make sure it doesn't break something else).

Anyhow, a token can be sent either for the copy of the game, or it can be sent for each battle element (start of battle, chit pull #1, chit pull #1, etc). I think something between those two is more appropriate: A new token at the start of each battle, when the player first rolls a die.

Now, your next question should be "Hey, doesn't this mean even MORE emails?" Yes, it does. BUT, they can be one-way emails. Once the token has been sent, the battle can progress normally. The token does not need to be checked until AFTER the battle is all over (or, even, until the phasing players turn is completed). At that point, it is loaded as a separate PBM file into the main game. But, if the player cheated, his game's token will no longer match the one on the server.

There are still ways to cheat with this kind of setup, but it would be an order of magnitude harder. Plus, each piece of the picture adds a small amount to the security.
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Jimmer
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by Jimmer »

By the way, the "random rolls" on each space on the map do NOT have to be a list of rolls. They can simply be the seed value from which the random function starts its list. Any unique seed value will always generate a unique series of random numbers, but each time the same seed is used, the same list will present itself. So, adding just a field for the seed value (which itself would be chosen randomly, and then saved).

NOTE: The map area seed values would have to be refreshed each time any player interacts with that space, but not take effect until the NEXT player interacts with that space. So, in essence, the random list the game generated when I entered London will not be actually used until some other player does something in London. Instead, the next player entering London (or reinforcing into it, etc) will grab the one my game created when they start THEIR battle. At the same time, their seed value would be placed into the holding area for the battle after that. And so forth.
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Jimmer
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by Jimmer »

By the way, Marshall, this could be extended into zones inside of an area as well. You could have a seed holder for the city and for the rural area. But, if a corps enters an area with an empty city, then both zones would be updated at once.
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Dancing Bear
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by Dancing Bear »

eh, yes, what Jimmer said. Marshall, is sounds easy enough to do something. Are you thinking along these lines?
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Marshall Ellis
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by Marshall Ellis »

Yes. My plan is to let the host know how many times a battle was loaded by EACH player. Maybe this should be public and not just the host?
Thank you

Marshall Ellis
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NeverMan
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by NeverMan »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Yes. My plan is to let the host know how many times a battle was loaded by EACH player. Maybe this should be public and not just the host?

This alone means very little. Are you going to implement other things as well, maybe something "along" the lines of what Jimmer suggested but more complex?
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by Grognot »

ORIGINAL: Jimmer
Now, your next question should be "Hey, doesn't this mean even MORE emails?"

Maybe not. Let's suppose that a particular sequence was generated when the game started. It could be passed along with the save file, and if we wanted to be a bit paranoid, the game could not only include that but a checksum incorporating a secret (e.g. MD5 of the concatenation of the game secret, with some hidden key buried in the game code -- not the save file. Probably no need to go RSA-heavy, heh).

Then, a PRNG is usually initialized with some bit sequence. The same sort of magic (MD5) can work here: take the game seed, concatenate it with a proprietary secret (to make it harder to figure out what the actual PRNG seed will look like, and thus make it harder to forecast rolls), and furthermore concatenate it with some key denoting the type of action and location (e.g. '1809:09:land:fr:prov79:fieldcombat:attacker:round3:outflankroll'). Take the MD5 hash of the combined string (or different hash if the PRNG requires more bits), seed the PRNG with it, roll. It's somewhat robust unless the PRNG is prone to patterns early in a sequence. Nice thing is, strings which are similar to each other aren't supposed to generate similar MD5 hashes, so you can do this with just the per-game secret and the built-in one. Bad thing is, it might be slightly computationally ugly, but it's not -that- bad.

It would still allow somebody to decide whether or not to actually -do- something (there's no real way around that unless there's a way to commit results to somebody else before seeing them -- problem if you're using quick combat, for instance... or with naval battles, testing interception), but reload + reorder wouldn't work.
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delatbabel
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by delatbabel »

What about the idea of having a central game host that managed die rolls, etc.  Most on-line EiA players (before EiANW when it was done using cyberboard) used services such as ACTS and Warfare Project to distribute die rolls, chit picks, etc.
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by Mardonius »

Great idea but perhaps a host with a priority of alternates in case the host(s) were involved in a battle
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by Marshall Ellis »

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Yes. My plan is to let the host know how many times a battle was loaded by EACH player. Maybe this should be public and not just the host?

This alone means very little. Are you going to implement other things as well, maybe something "along" the lines of what Jimmer suggested but more complex?

What more would you need othen than a public notice that France is cheating???
Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


NeverMan
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by NeverMan »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Yes. My plan is to let the host know how many times a battle was loaded by EACH player. Maybe this should be public and not just the host?

This alone means very little. Are you going to implement other things as well, maybe something "along" the lines of what Jimmer suggested but more complex?

What more would you need othen than a public notice that France is cheating???

Oh, so it is going to detect cheating, because simply knowing that someone loaded their turn multiple times is not enough, IMO, to accuse someone of cheating?

What if their computer crashed (Windows has a habit of doing that)? What if they accidentally hit the wrong key and had to reload, etc, etc, etc...?
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by bresh »

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

ORIGINAL: NeverMan




This alone means very little. Are you going to implement other things as well, maybe something "along" the lines of what Jimmer suggested but more complex?

What more would you need othen than a public notice that France is cheating???

Oh, so it is going to detect cheating, because simply knowing that someone loaded their turn multiple times is not enough, IMO, to accuse someone of cheating?

What if their computer crashed (Windows has a habit of doing that)? What if they accidentally hit the wrong key and had to reload, etc, etc, etc...?

I think he said battlefiles loaded repeatly.

So far in some pbm games i never had my pc crash during a turn (cross my fingers).

I do belive at times, you sometimes want to discuss plans with your ally before moving forces, but you would need to load the game to see the situation. I think the idea about checking when there are rolls involved like forage it should use some XX-file, mentioned above.

Regards
Bresh
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by NeverMan »

ORIGINAL: bresh

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis




What more would you need othen than a public notice that France is cheating???

Oh, so it is going to detect cheating, because simply knowing that someone loaded their turn multiple times is not enough, IMO, to accuse someone of cheating?

What if their computer crashed (Windows has a habit of doing that)? What if they accidentally hit the wrong key and had to reload, etc, etc, etc...?

I think he said battlefiles loaded repeatly.

So far in some pbm games i never had my pc crash during a turn (cross my fingers).

I do belive at times, you sometimes want to discuss plans with your ally before moving forces, but you would need to load the game to see the situation. I think the idea about checking when there are rolls involved like forage it should use some XX-file, mentioned above.

Regards
Bresh

Yes, you are correct he said battle files. I used "turn" because it has broader cheating implications. That said, what I said earlier still holds true for either "battle" files or "turn" files.

I have had my computer crash during games. I have accidentally hit the wrong button(s) (not thinking) and I have had my GPU not recover during games (not this one though).

I'm just saying that these things happen and to ban a player from a game for reloading a turn is not the best scenario when I think a better method (such as the one Jimmer suggested but maybe more complex/advanced) can be found/implemented.
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Marshall Ellis
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by Marshall Ellis »

Tracking the loading of turn files could also be done. This would also be a good indicator BUT I think I only want to let everybody know how many times it was loaded as opposed to blocking a reload just in case the PC crashed, world came to an end, etc. Agreed? It would still be public knowledge so that if Bob's computer were always "crashing" then the host could warn / replace.
 
 
 
Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


NeverMan
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RE: Security needs to be a major priority with this game

Post by NeverMan »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Tracking the loading of turn files could also be done. This would also be a good indicator BUT I think I only want to let everybody know how many times it was loaded as opposed to blocking a reload just in case the PC crashed, world came to an end, etc. Agreed? It would still be public knowledge so that if Bob's computer were always "crashing" then the host could warn / replace.



Is there a way to save the state upon a forced or unexplained close?
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